writing/inventions/intellectual property agreements with your employer?

[doctahjones]

first off, not exactly sure where to put this thread, so i stuck it here, where most of the business type people would be.

second, my boss is really cool and we're getting an exclusion written for me when i get back to work to make sure everything is good...however....

my boss inquired about my photography intentions after showing him a few pictures from a workshop i attended. i told him that right now it's so i can make some side cash to buy more camera junk (which is true, since i really want a d300, and some 2.8 lenses...etc etc. but one day i'd love to make enough to quit my day job. ).

i work in the IT field as my day job and my title is "computer engineer". basically i take care of database/web/etc servers, and do some light programming/scripting to keep things running. i'm pretty familiar with having to sign IP agreements and such.

my boss says that any pictures i take, even though they're not done while 'on the clock' are still property of my employer, not me. even though it's equipment i purchased/etc, the images are theirs.

i looked at the wording...

...any inventions, ideas, improvements, design, discoveries, processes or methods (including but not limited to program, software design, and applications) whatsoever discovered, conceived, or developed by Individual, either individually or jointly with others, during the course of Individual's employment with or assignment to the (employer) by using the (employer)'s time, data, facilities, or materials (collectively "Inventions"), provided the subject matter is of interest to the (employer), as determined in the sole discretion of the President or the Chairman of the Board of (employer). If the Inventions are related to Individual's employment with or assignment to the (employer) or are collateral or incident to such employment or assignment, they shall be deemed to have been conceived in the course of Individual's employment or assignment. It is immaterial whether the Invention
occurs to Individual at work, at home, or elsewhere.

...but it doesn't seem that my photog stuff would be included. if it is included, i don't know under what part.

anyone else ever have this come up before?

i can see pictures that i'd taken at a company function to be covered under this and (technically) be property of my employer, but things i do on my own? that's kind of ridiculous.

on a side note, i don't think i actually signed the document giving away all my rights. we'll see when i get back to work on wed. :P

[brad]

These agreements are intentionally vague.. and you could find a lawyer that would read it either way, depending on who was paying him.

The important part is to not get into a situation with a lawyer.. because when that happens, only the lawyers win.

[toverman]

I'm chiming in because I'd like to know what you find out.

Personally, I don't see how photography, or anything you do on your own time unrelated directly to your line of work, could be claimed by your employer. I can see how a no-compete clause could come into play not allowing you to do freelance IT work for a competitor.

[Angelo]

James, keep us posted. But I don't think an employer can do that if you are on your own time and using your own equipment. There also seems to be no conflict of interest (photography v. computer work). Do you think it wise to open a can of worms by bringing it to a head on Wednesday?

[jeffkohn]

They have no claim to your pictures. You're not taking pictures 'on the job'; you're not using their resources, time or equipment; and you're not doing something that could be considered competing with them. Even if they tried to claim that your pictures were 'of interest to the employer', they wouldn't have any grounds for saying that your pictures are related to your employment/assignment with the company. I suppose that line could be blurred if you ever did take some pictures as part of your job, so I wouldn't go volunteering to do such even as favor just to be safe.

A lot of what's in those agreements is vague, over-reaching, BS. The people who write them and make employees sign them are pure evil. When my company got acquired by a larger company and they made everybody sign one of these, I almost left over it; but in the end I signed because pretty much any medium- or large-sized tech company is going to have something similar.

[kenw]

"If the Inventions are related to Individual's employment with or assignment to the (employer) or are collateral or incident to such employment or assignment, they shall be deemed to have been conceived in the course of Individual's employment or assignment. "

emphasis mine

Does photography for the company exist in your job description? That's the only way it could be construed as he says. And if you have an IT job that mentions photography, it would be the first one.....

...ignore it and don't let his (i will assume) unintentional mistake affect your attitude or enjoyment of the job. Don't escalate it unnecessarily, my personal opinion (I've been party to numerous IP contracts over the years) is that you're fine.

I routinely took photos of equipment tests at a former employer. I didn't have to, I wanted to. But they let me practice shooting on company time, gain access to otherwise restricted areas, and displayed my stuff prominently about the place. there was never anything in the job description about photography. When I left, I felt since the images could contain trade secret info and were taken on company time that they were company property and I left them and didn't take copies with me. My equipment was used and they didn't pay for any of it. But I felt doing what was right meant the pics weren't mine to keep. No one ever said anything either way.

And legally, I also felt that if they wanted to make a stink, they could make it stick.

[Jharts77]

"during the course of Individual's employment with or assignment to the (employer) by using the (employer)'s time, data, facilities, or materials (collectively "Inventions"), provided the subject matter is of interest to the (employer)"


You said you bought your own equipment, yes?

What I get from this, is that they have no right to anything, unless you are on the clock while doing it, or using their materials.

[CaroleHayes]

by using the (employer)'s time, data, facilities, or materials (collectively "Inventions"), provided the subject matter is of interest to the (employer),

You aren't using any of the above, so I don't see how it can apply....

[KdLaneJr]

I don't see anything in the wording you posted that a reasonable person could remotely construe to say that the company had rights to photos taken by you, off the clock and with your personal equipment, so I'm quite interested to hear how this turns out for you.

[doctahjones]

thanks for the comments ya'll. i'll let you know how it turns out wedensday.

apparently it's no problem to get an exception written for my photog stuff, and since it's not a problem i'd much rather get it done just so there's no chance of any issues later on. so, it's not like i'm really opening a can of worms.

the vauge wording about "in the companys interest" could be used in that, if i sold a picture for a million dollars (yeah right! i wish!), i'm sure that money would be of "interest" to them.

i do agree with the "no-compete" thing and could understand that. we do actually have an in house graphics group that does do model pictures for advertisements sometimes, and i could see it covering that. but that's usually on company time and such.

i also agree that if it's my equipment, my time (as opposed to during work hours) and such, that they shouldn't have any right to my stuff.

i -also- agree that if it came to it, lawyers would be invovled, and at that point it's "whose pockets are deeper".

[kenw]

i think the exception is a wise move.

[CaptainTom]

Get an exception. It will be as vague as the original document.
Even if you don't think it applies, it will keep your boss happy and stroke his
controlling ego.

[jeffkohn]

Get an exception. It will be as vague as the original document.

Actually it will probably be quite narrowly defined since it's the company that's relinquishing claim to something. It'll probably say that he can only take pictures on Saturdays, and only of purple flowers. Everything else they still own...

[brad]

Get the exception, for sure... like I said, these are written to be vague on purpose.

The *intent* of these agreements (originally) is to avoid a situation where:

1. You are working on Problem A
2. That night, in the shower.. you come up with a solution to Problem A with Solution B .. which has applications of scope far beyond Problem A .. and maybe even beyond the scope of the company's current business model.
3. You develop Solution B off hours .. and start your own company with it.

[ggeen]

I signed one of these when I started work for my employer. The employer only really has a leg to stand on legally if the idea, invention, etc. is derived from your employment -- whether you were on the clock or not. My employer even help me seek a patent on a idea I had after I broke my leg. Another idea I did not pursue because it was derived directly from my work with the SEM.

The paragraph you quoted states the same thing. If the idea is derived from your work, the company may wish to call it theirs. As a former system administrator, I find it difficult that your employer can call photography job related. They would then need to extend the same policy to all employees -- not just the good photographers. :)

Unless you work directly for the owner/CEO/board of directors, your boss does not get to make that decision as stated in the paragraph provided.

the sole discretion of the President or the Chairman of the Board