is it possible to improve...IF

[janetg]

just garnering some opinions here.

is it possible to improve you skills if

a) you don't process your own images
b) you don't know how to use lightroom or photoshop
c) you couldn't use a flash if your life depended on it
d) you never take your camera out of 'P' mode
e) you don't make your own albums...and have never made 1 in your lifetime

just saying...i have a friend who does all of the above - and it's staring to annoy me. i actually work FOR this person, doing everything mentioned above, but pressing the shutter button. i process, edit, upload, and do the albums. this person is not improving. i think it's time to let him fly on his own to sink or swim. no amount of advice, technique critique, how to's, are making any difference.

wwyd?

[kenw]

It might be tough, but yes, for the most part, there is a lot to it other than the 5 parts you mention; composition is the 1st that comes to mind. None of the steps you mention address composition (with the possible exception of cropping to re-compose).

Flash can be an issue, but I avoid it like the plague! (but when I need to, I appreciate your personal education......!!)

The one that really bothers me in your list is the P-mode thing. What that tells me is that the person is lacking the fundamantal initiative to get a bit creative with the camera and has little knowledge of the tool/camera's capabilities. What this means is that the person is comfortable with technically adequate shots, getting (perhaps) well exposed but mundane images most of the time. However, in this case I sense your frustration is not due to perfectly exposed shots....

a,b,c and especially e all happen AFTER the camera, in post. Lots of folks got really great images before any of these were available.

[janetg]

thanks ken - i did leave composition out of it - and no - they dont' know that either, and i feel that if they at least did some of the above, they would see where they are making mistake after mistake. and i would be fine with everything if as in your last sentence...they got really great images - but they don't.

when i started doing editing for folks, i did it to learn. i learned the poses, what works, what doesn't, etc. i still have tons to learn, but i think i'm all learned out with this person, in other words, i've learned what NOT to do... (you coming this wednesday to panera?)

[bondarnes]

For me it would come down to, "Is the pay worth the frustration?" If not move on. If so then just realize that the person isn't going to change so don't get ulcers over it.

[David Whatley]

Shouldnt you call this job security?

[S-Man]

Perhaps he's a really good Business person with excellent sales skills but mediocre photo skills?
I'd like to think that I'm progressively improving, but maybe some photogs are happy where they are and just kind of plateau. Especially if they keep getting gigs and business is good as-is.

Honestly I've seen some peoples work and I'm like, "How could ANYONE hire this person? They're awful!" And they're getting lots of jobs too! It blows my mind, but again, maybe it gos back to their business skills/knowledge?

[groovyone]

Originally Posted by bondarnes

For me it would come down to, "Is the pay worth the frustration?" If not move on. If so then just realize that the person isn't going to change so don't get ulcers over it.

Exactly

[Cajungaltx]

Honestly... heck yeah.

I made the really poor manners mistake of making a comment with another person.... within hearing range of someone that I really respect about having to show someone who TEACHES photography how to use actions in photoshop.... and how I thought it was kind of funny that they didn't know how to do that...

This photographer said that I'd basically just called him an idiot. He said that you can be good at photography... or you can be good at the other stuff... you can't be good at all of it.

I take personal exception to that belief.... but he's been doing it a LONG time... so I respect his opinion.... I think that you MUST be good at the other stuff to make it today... OR have the income to hire someone who is.

10 photographers can take the same photo... and if metered correctly...and custom white balance...within reason... they will get the same photo... the editing of the photo makes a HUGE difference.

So... while I personally believe you need to know how to do it... it's kind of like one of my attorney friends says...

He can practice law without being able to format a document.... he doesn't NEED to know... as long as he can afford to hire someone to do it for him.

[mmuhlenkamp]

I think you should be able to at least moderately edit your own images (correct white balance, add contrast, etc.) and shoot full manual and if someone is really good at available light I don't think flash is all that necessary, but it's still good to know. I can understand if someone doesn't want to mess with web stuff or creating albums because that gets more into web development and graphic design, not photography.

If you're getting paid for your trouble though I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[ldelacruz]

Do you work for Him or do work for Him?

Originally Posted by janetg

just garnering some opinions here.

is it possible to improve you skills if

a) you don't process your own images
b) you don't know how to use lightroom or photoshop
c) you couldn't use a flash if your life depended on it
d) you never take your camera out of 'P' mode
e) you don't make your own albums...and have never made 1 in your lifetime

just saying...i have a friend who does all of the above - and it's staring to annoy me. i actually work FOR this person, doing everything mentioned above, but pressing the shutter button. i process, edit, upload, and do the albums. this person is not improving. i think it's time to let him fly on his own to sink or swim. no amount of advice, technique critique, how to's, are making any difference.

wwyd?

[kenw]

Originally Posted by Cajungaltx

He said that you can be good at photography... or you can be good at the other stuff... you can't be good at all of it.

"good" is a bit subjective, but this is basically true for any profession. The more you specialize, the more your expertise increases in that single skill. The broader your skills, the less depth you typically have at any particular skill.

The correct compromise is to know what to outsource and what to keep internal. Even if you never learn photoshop, you need to know what is possible and be able to match your needs with their capabilities. It is different for everyone: engineers, photographers, large and small companies.

[S-Man]

Ummm, I had posted a response to Lonnie's sig...I didn't know it was his sig

[T. Adam Martin]

For me it would come down to, "Is the pay worth the frustration?" If not move on. If so then just realize that the person isn't going to change so don't get ulcers over it.

Additionally, you could raise your rates. As already mentioned, some photographers rationalize the decision to ignore the post-processing side of the business simply because the opportunity costs involved are too high. Therefore, the need to have a supplier that provides solid post-processing services is paramount. If you are truly providing value to the finished goods, then you should be compensated correctly for that value. Raising your rates to capture some of that surplus is a valid approach.

Like Don mentioned, however, if the price tag you assign to the value you provide is higher than your photog is willing to pay, be ready to walk.

[toverman]

My guess is that someone whose work doesn't hold up to scrutiny is being hired based on lowball prices.

But my other fear, which continues to be confirmed, is that the average person has no idea of the difference between good and great photos. Further, they don't know the different between OK and total crap. Blurry and underexposed is a way of life for some.

[janetg]

see, i guess i'm just tired of it - i've been doing it for over 3 years now...and the pay is starting to not be worth the frustration. and good v. bad is not subjective in this situation...it's bad. in fact, it's only a matter of time before they get called on the carpet about it, and in addition, they continue to make poor life choices. when you work with someone for this length of time, and have known them longer, sometimes it IS time to move on.

thanks for all the advice ...