me vs. YMCA...Need some advise

[Sonny]

Here's the deal,

On May 5, 2009 I was asked by a parent to take action photos of her son's flag football game at the YMCA. With the permission of the other parents I also photographed the other players. The parents knew I was there to take the photos and place the photos online for the parents to purchase.

Fast forward to today. I received a voice mail. The person leaving the voice mail notified me she just saw my posting on my website of the flag football game. She goes on to say, "unfortunately that's not something we do. That's something you need to come in and talk to us about. Talk about a partnership and submit a background check to be on their property"

I don't have a problem with their requests. I will most likely take them offline because enough time has pasted and I don't see anymore parents buying photos. For future reference I would like to know:

1. Legally what are my rights in this situation?
2. What are the right of the YMCA
3. If I want to do so, could I leave my photos online?

I'd appreciate any help and advise you may have to offer. Thank you in advance.
-Sonny

[srwatters]

I believe it's the old private property issue. If the images were made on YMCA owned (or leased) property, then they have the right to limit photography use and/or sales. The background check is standard for dealing with kids. I'm the manager (not the coach) of my daughter's U-11 soccer team and I must have a BG check done. If you leave them online and they can prove the images were made on private property, you could have some kind of legal action brought against you.

I think you're on the right track just taking them down. No need to go and see them unless you want to try to make a business arrangement with them. YMMV.

[wildhairphotography]

Hi Sonny. I take lots of photos at my son's YMCA soccer games, and have never had this issue. Infact, they have even asked to use some for their annual reports, etc. It sounds more like - hey we didnt think of that first, and how can we get a cut????

[DEMDeepEllumMusic]

You are on their property so you have to play by their rules, as to the BG check that is pretty much a standard nowdays for shooting minors. I am trying to work out an arangement with a local youth boxing gym and they pretty much want to have restricted access applied to any albums of the boxers under 18 that would be taken (ie password protected for access by the boxers and gym staff only which kind of defeats how this would help promote my business since a very limited audience would be seeing them and many of them don't have much extra $$ to buy much more than a basic package so I'm thinking this through on my end. Hey it is just a short distance from me and would get me to tighten up my lighting skills and portrait work).

So their request is not out of line and setting up a positive working relationship with them can't hurt.

[CaptainTom]

It's a double edged sword.
If you tell the Y to take a hike, they'll say you refused to have a background check, which puts doubt in everyones mind.
If you go along with the Y, you need to see if the $return is worth the aggravation.
I'm looking at this from a business standpoint only.
If you just want to be a nice guy and provide some photos to the kids, you need to do whatever the Y wants and live with it.

[jeffkohn]

Property owners can restrict the activities of guests on their property. They could have told you not to take the pictures. If you had refused to comply, they could have removed you from the premises. That's pretty the extent of what they can do to you (along with banning you from future visits). But once you've already taken the pictures, I don't think they have any control or ownership of those pictures or what you can or cannot do with them.

[SpeedRacerSlots]

Depends on where the photos were taken.
When my kids was playing Y ball... the Y didnt have the facilities, it was facilities of area schools (public and private) as well as a few churches.

I agree though with pulling the images, talking with them and saying next...

[carrbowl]

I have worked at a Y before and am on a board now. I would say from my perspective it's not so much a financial issue as a liability issue. The public is so aware of internet issues with photos, I would assume (and yes I used that word on purpose) the Y is concerned about getting in trouble for taking photos of the kids on Y property, with Y leagues with no checks and balances of the photographer. I know enough about you to know you are legit, but they don't. You might just call the Y, as a person of interest, and ask them if you wanted to photograph some leagues what you would have to do. There may be some politics involved too. They may already have someone on the board that is a photographer or a financial giver that they are obligated to, and they feel they have to use them....just some thoughts..

[esdramaqueen]

I agree with Renae. My husband is on the Y board and it is probably not a financially motivated issue.
Developing a good relationship with the Y is always a good thing, for you and the community. They may turn out to be one of your biggest supporters.

[hotshot38]

Legal Rights of Photographers - has a good little section on shooting minors.

Photographer's Rights - another useful resource on what can and cannot be considering legal.

[Sonny]

Thank you all so very much. I appreciate all the advise given.

I totally understand both sides of this situation. I've been shooting youth sports as a business for five years and I am a father of three young children, so I can understand them wanting to protect of the children.

This was my first time shooting a YMCA event. I believe I should of taken more responsibility to confirm the YMCA rules regarding commercial photography. It's always a learning process . In good faith I will take down the photos from that day and probably schedule a day to meet with them. Like some of you mentioned, it could be beneficial to both of us.

Thanks again,
-Sonny

[carrbowl]

But Sonny in your defense...the parents asked you to shoot. Really, are you going to say no?? I kind of related this to the NILMDTS program. Although the program sets up standards with the hospitals and has good will the hospitals, they don't really have to. They are taking the photos for the parents. The parents are the ones inviting the photog into the hospital to take photos of the stillborn child. I'm not sure the hospital can really refuse (maybe legally they could, but jez...just think of the outrage if they did).....and I was thinking of this with you. You may not really need the Y's approval for that first shoot, but for goodwill, it was probably a good idea. And definitely for future business you should. Besides, your so could they would probably use you for alot of other stuff..

[andyz]

Two questions on the topic in general:
1) Was the venture even profitable? I have read so many times here that it doesn't seem to be.
2) Were the photos behind a password? I am the father of two kids, teens now. Someone happening on a site, not mine, seeing my kids in a sport and deciding to stalk or kidnap them was always far from my worst fears. I won't say it couldn't happen, but I see a lot less of a problem with this than so many others. The kid left alone for a minute in a store is at greater risk, IMHO, or left for a few minutes at their siblings sporting event even. Still, the photog has to work by the rules of the owner and person paying them.

[GW2]

2) Were the photos behind a password?

Good point. Not only would it keep the boogieman pedophiles out, it would keep out anyone but the parents of those people who you wanted to sell the photos to, including money grubbers wanting a cut.

If I want to take pictures of my kid playing a Y sport, are they going to tell me "no"? How is it different if I hire someone to take pics of my kid? This is either an overzealous fearmonger or someone wanting a cut.

The whole BG thing is about liability insurance companies. Often, the BG company they require is a wholely owned subsidiary. They limit their liability while charging you to do it. Brilliant.

[CallMeAl]

The easiest thing to do is password protect the online gallery and provide the password to the coach or person who hired you. Let them desseminate the password.

If the youth league/YMCA say it's not about money, yet want a fee for you to shoot or a percentage...it's about money! It's always about money. It's a business regardless if they are "non-profit" or not. If they want a percentage, you can pay them the percentage and then raise your prices to compensate.

When I ran into a similar issue, I told the parents that I'd be happy to shoot their games, but would have to charge XXX due to the league demanding a cut. I let them take it up with the league.

As for the background check, go ahead and submit to it. The North Texas Soccer Association likes to use the Ashley Estelle issue as justification for the background checks, but the reality is that she wasn't kidnapped by a photographer on the sidelines. It's a sticky issue that I've found makes shooting youth sports action not very profitable.

Good luck.