Pixtus - Photography Forum, Photographers, Photo Tips

klynam

I originally posted this on another thread, but didn't want to hi-jack it so posting here...

*****

Another example - as if we need more - of why working for free is very often a no-win situation for everyone involved...

My mother-In-Law (MIL) designs a local women's magazine (name and town without to protect what's left of my personal pride. Yes, first red flag goes up here.)

MIL: We'd like you to do the cover photo for our next issue!
ME: Great what do you have in mind?
MIL: Well we can't pay you (insert next red flag and typical promises of great exposure, next project will be paying, etc.) so we want you to be completely free to shoot whatever you want.
ME: Great, so you don't have ANY preconceived notion?
MIL: Nope! (red flag 3)
ME: Well what do you think about X, Y, or Z ?
MIL: Sure - those are great - just do whatever you want! In fact, why don't you use (daughter / my wife) she's SO cute! (red flag 4)
ME: Okay, sure.

Fast forward through 2 photo sessions with wife...

she hates ALL the pictures of herself...

we review together and make our picks...

she still hates all the pictures...

I do complete digital retouching on the picks: complexion perfection, digital backgrounds of winter scenes, the whole 9-yards...
she still hates the photos...

but we send FIVE images to MIL...

Now keep in mind these are final, completely retouched, hi-rez, ready for print images for MIL to pick on and go to press...

Rats - I just got called into a meeting.

Of course we all know how this ends, but the journey is SO much fun you'll definitely want to stay tuned for the "rest of the story"...

resehop · 12-03-2009, 11:16 AM

I posted this on another thread about FREE:
Everything is changing. Your example of the music industry is fine proof. It went from buying discs, to iTunes, and now FREE through Pandora etc..... So these artists are going to have to adjust. They fought back for how long against companies like Napster? Now they have decided to put their music out there (like posting it on You Tube, Myspace and so on) for people to listen to free. They have changed their strategy to focus on ticket sales at their shows. Also notice they are using their fame to start new product lines. So many of them are coming out with all kinds of products and doing product endorsements. They are changing the way they do business.

I am from the school of though of if you don't change with the market, you will fall behind. Clients want things now, they want it cheap, they want it free. I would suggest everyone to check out the book: Free: The Future of a Radical Price by Chris Anderson. I am reading his book right now called The Long Tail. Now please note that I am not saying offer your services for FREE but understand that there is some reason for so many companies do the BOGO right? You are going to have to compete with free so why not figure out a way to use that to your advantage.

GOOGLE fine example. SO many users that use it FREE but there are people that pay for it. Google is a giant right now and profitable. I think we can learn from this. You can only make money from scarcity. So give away the abundance make people pay for the scarcity.

Photography industry is changing. I respect that people want to hold on to the old ways of doing thing and that is fine if it works for them. It isn't going to work forever though which is why I challenge that business model. You have to create a demand for you. You have to give clients a reason to spend money with you. If that means coming up with a new revenue model, then that is what needs to be done.

I think sometimes we photographers forget to look at it from a consumers side. I know there are things that I don't want to pay for if I can do it myself. Fine example, flooring in my house. I went out and bought the flooring but I put it in myself because it wasn't worth the money to me to have it done by a professional. I am sure that professional installation could have done a much better job then I did but it wasn't worth the cost TO ME. I could use the money it would have cost me for them to install it to buy a new living room set if I just did the floor myself. I didn't care if the floor looked perfect. It was a cost benefit analysis. Photography clients thing the same exact way. Sure your products are better then what they will get on their own, plus it saves them the hassle right? To most people it isn't worth it if they can save money doing it themselves. There will always be an exception to that and if that is your market great. Most of the market is printing themselves because they are educated enough to do that or they are posting the pictures to facebook never even printing.

Since that is the way the market is turning in everything.... give away abundance, charge for scarcity.

resehop · 12-03-2009, 11:28 AM

Let me just put out there that under the philosophy I posted above you are not actually working "for free". You are generating revenue but just not always directly from people using the service. This has been used a lot such as TV broadcasting it is the commercials that pay for the programming. Radio stations, Google, Facebook, Hulu, Grooveshark, Yahoo, and I could go on and on. They offer certain things "free" to some users but obviously there is someone paying and that is advertisers.

Also the BOGO is an example. You aren't really getting the other thing "free" it is an advertising gimmick that consumers like to see. It is about the psychology of getting into the consumers mind. Everyone likes to save money and feel like they are getting a good deal.

I think the word "free" can have different connotations. We all know, nothing in life is free....ever!

BWangPhoto · 12-03-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

I posted this on another thread about FREE:
Everything is changing. Your example of the music industry is fine proof. It went from buying discs, to iTunes, and now FREE through Pandora etc..... So these artists are going to have to adjust. They fought back for how long against companies like Napster? Now they have decided to put their music out there (like posting it on You Tube, Myspace and so on) for people to listen to free. They have changed their strategy to focus on ticket sales at their shows. Also notice they are using their fame to start new product lines. So many of them are coming out with all kinds of products and doing product endorsements. They are changing the way they do business.

Wrong, they have always had videos on TV and never charged you to watch. They have just changed the medium from TV to YouTube as it is more popular. (Same with Myspace and others.) IF you want the song on your IPod, you STILL have to buy it. Period. They are NOT giving away their product, (music.) As far as fighting back against companies like Napster, they still are. Put a copyrighted song on your website and watch how fast they come after you for use rights. Proof of this is the recent case where the lady was fined like 500K for downloading 13 or thereabouts songs illegally and was caught. Pandora has to PAY for the rights to play those songs for free…and if you listen too long each month, you have to pay! So No, it isn’t free the end consumer may not be paying, but the artist IS NOT giving their product away for free either. So bad example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

I am from the school of though of if you don't change with the market, you will fall behind. Clients want things now, they want it cheap, they want it free. I would suggest everyone to check out the book: Free: The Future of a Radical Price by Chris Anderson. I am reading his book right now called The Long Tail. Now please note that I am not saying offer your services for FREE but understand that there is some reason for so many companies do the BOGO right? You are going to have to compete with free so why not figure out a way to use that to your advantage.

Have you ever noticed what stores and companies do the BOGO? Yea, I wouldn’t want to be in that “class” of the market either. I am NOT a discount store. I am a talented, experienced craftsman and work hard at what I do. You will never get ahead in this industry as an “economy” photographer and placing little to no value on your product. Thou, you can go ahead and do the BOGO thing and raise your single price to cover the “extra” you are “giving” them…you would need to price your work so high it wouldn’t sell in the first place. Granted thou, we do a lot of promotions and end up giving away some ‘free’ items. However they are NOT labeled free. Free has NO value to it. As a good example, Facebook/MySpace ready images that accompany senior packages, once you spend a certain amount.

Another photographer prints a nice layflat press print book as a proof for each senior session. (If you purchase 1299.00 in product, you can keep the proof book.) When asked how much the book is, by a mom that isn’t buying 1299.00, it is the difference between what they purchased and the 1299.00. He won’t sell them separately. You would not believe how many people purchase additional prints and product just to get that book.

Another prime example, Portrait Innovations. Yea, 9.99 and you get the session, and a free 8x10”! But the fact is, if you go in and buy what you need and more than a single image, you end up spending almost as much as a professional studio and you can’t get anything larger than a 10x13” print! If you want larger, you have to buy the file for 150.00 and have it printed somewhere else.

Yea, I want to be in that market too. The one time and done market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

GOOGLE fine example. SO many users that use it FREE but there are people that pay for it. Google is a giant right now and profitable. I think we can learn from this. You can only make money from scarcity. So give away the abundance make people pay for the scarcity.

GOOGLE…another example of Pandora etc. Google is free to use because all of the paid advertisements that supports it. If they didn’t have the advertisers and were not providing a quality product, in this case a means to reach consumers, Google wouldn’t be free. Oh and what is so scarce about Google? Lets see, there is Yahoo, Ask.com, Bing.com, etc. etc. there is nothing scarce about Google.

Anyway, comparing Google to the photographic industry is like comparing Walnuts to Apples…totally and completely different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

Photography industry is changing. I respect that people want to hold on to the old ways of doing thing and that is fine if it works for them. It isn't going to work forever though which is why I challenge that business model. You have to create a demand for you. You have to give clients a reason to spend money with you. If that means coming up with a new revenue model, then that is what needs to be done.

Sure, photography is changing. I can tell you haven’t been in the industry long, because it has been doing this and repeating itself for many years. When Medium format cameras came out, they were called a trend and then they became the favored method to shoot. Then it was 35mm, oh no! it will never work, medium format is the only way to go. Now it is digital. The method of accomplishing the work will change…what will not is Quality costs and Quality is not free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

I think sometimes we photographers forget to look at it from a consumers side. I know there are things that I don't want to pay for if I can do it myself. Fine example, flooring in my house. I went out and bought the flooring but I put it in myself because it wasn't worth the money to me to have it done by a professional. I am sure that professional installation could have done a much better job then I did but it wasn't worth the cost TO ME. I could use the money it would have cost me for them to install it to buy a new living room set if I just did the floor myself. I didn't care if the floor looked perfect. It was a cost benefit analysis. Photography clients thing the same exact way. Sure your products are better then what they will get on their own, plus it saves them the hassle right? To most people it isn't worth it if they can save money doing it themselves. There will always be an exception to that and if that is your market great. Most of the market is printing themselves because they are educated enough to do that or they are posting the pictures to facebook never even printing.

Wow, you really believe this? (I would sure like to see the industry data to back this up.) Sure they can buy a camera, printer and computer and print a photo…but by far, the largest percentage of them cannot get a decent print out of that printer. Color is off, image was improperly exposed in the camera, color profile is wrong, etc. etc.

I really laughed at this. I am constantly looking at this industry from the consumer’s side. (That is the only reasons I have been in it 20 plus years and have friends in it long than that and still making a decent living.) Your example of putting in the floor is nice. But then, if a client is satisfied with less than perfect and high quality, they WILL NEVER be your client in the first place. If “ok” is good enough, then you will never get that person as a client. The reason our clients come to us in the first place is because we are quality and we can do what they cannot. (At least it is that way for our studio.)

Of course, one thing I know has changed over the years is the definition of “successful.” With the internet, one can be “successful” overnight, and consumers believe everything on a website as fact. You can claim to be anything you want on the internet and many do. But it is hard to claim it and then have a client walk in your studio and it NOT be backed up with the actual facts. A factor that I believe is keeping many photographers in business at this point in our economy.

The last 6 brides we talked to, (2 of which we booked) stated that they were so tired of talking to photographers that didn’t have a “place of business” and keep “normal business hours.” The brides had taken days off of work to find a photographer and other people for their wedding and when they called to make an appointment, they couldn’t see them until late in the afternoon and they wanted the bride to meet them at a local shopping center, coffee shop etc. to do the consultation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

Since that is the way the market is turning in everything.... give away abundance, charge for scarcity.

So in closing, I just want to point out, I am not knocking your BOGO, free, changing industry ideas. Just pointing out some errors in your examples and line of thinking. If they work for you, then great. But you will never make a decent living from your work if you do not price it accordingly. Ask your plumber to do a BOGO next time you need him. Or your doctor. I am sure he will do two heart surgeries for the price of one, too. No. Quality and scarcity as you say costs. You can’t combine quality and low price.

In my opinion, the problem is that most of the photographers you are referring to just are not really in “business.” They do this as a second income, or have a primary income that pays the bills in the first place and do not have to produce a profit that would provide them a living. Put them in a situation that they would have to price their product and produce a profit capable of paying the bills (for both a business and home/family) and it is a whole different story. It just depends on what you want from your ‘business’ and your situation. For me, I make my entire living from photography and therefore want to make a decent living from what I do, just like any other professional in their chosen field. In this case, my product is photographs, and I cannot make a living selling $5.00 8x10” prints because I am not a photo lab or Wal Mart, I am a professional photographer and it costs me more than what the paper and ink costs to print a photo.

resehop · 02:35 PM

Ohh wow... not really sure where all of that came from but let me explain some of your points. First I want to point out that I said it is known that all things are NOT "free"..EVER (did you miss that?)

You are right. They had videos on TV and never charged but I was saying now with things like Pandora and laptops who needs to buy music? They fought for a long time to make people pay for online music, but that war is out the door because they are now posting it for people to play for free. As I stated in the original post, so many people use it FREE but some where people are paying for this.

I am not suggesting that photographers do BOGO free on anything! I was just saying that the word "Free" has some backing or advertisers wouldn't be doing it. There are lots of big name businesses out there that do BOGO deals and those are the places that most consumers shop. I am simply staying that the word "free" can be a powerful marketing tool even if it isn't really "free" or someone else is footing the bill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWangPhoto

You will never get ahead in this industry as an “economy” photographer and placing little to no value on your product.

I am sure that is what was said when Wal Mart came around and look at those giants...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWangPhoto

Another photographer prints a nice layflat press print book as a proof for each senior session. (If you purchase 1299.00 in product, you can keep the proof book.) When asked how much the book is, by a mom that isn’t buying 1299.00, it is the difference between what they purchased and the 1299.00. He won’t sell them separately. You would not believe how many people purchase additional prints and product just to get that book.

This proves EXACTLY what I am saying. So way to prove the point! That photographer is giving something "free" even though really that person is paying. In their mind though, they are getting a deal or they wouldn't buy more products to reach that goal. Now to you and I they have to reach a certain price point so ultimately they are paying. To the consumer if they reach the price point they get the product "free".

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

Since that is the way the market is turning in everything.... give away abundance, charge for scarcity.

An example of using this method is:
Abundance=digital files give those away "free"
Scarcity=your expertise and great picture taking abilities

Give away your digital files but charge a premium for your photography expertise.

With that being said... I am not saying this works for everyone and I know that the traditional thought is "don't give away your digital files" but if you are charging a premium for your service why not? The market IS moving this way. I will compare Google and Facebook to Photography because it is the marketing model that the younger generation is getting used to and I want to market to them because most of my clients are from ages 21-30.

So I am not saying that you are doing anything for free. The cost must be paid somehow obviously or no one will stay in business long. I am saying why not use "free" to make MORE money.

BWangPhoto · 12-03-2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

They fought for a long time to make people pay for online music, but that war is out the door because they are now posting it for people to play for free. As I stated in the original post, so many people use it FREE but some where people are paying for this.

What part of Pandora do you not understand? I am not concerned with the end consumer. I am NOT the end consumer. I am the 'artist/musician' in the example and I am NOT giving away my music for free. Pandora is PAYING me for the rights to play my songs for the end consumer. (limited use, that is.) And what happens when I don't have internet? I have to buy the song if I want to listen to it. It isn't free to have it on your Ipod and have the convenience of playing that song anytime anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

I am sure that is what was said when Wal Mart came around and look at those giants...

I think you have that backwards in the photography business. You would be competing against the 'Wal Marts' (with price as the only factor) and that isn't a market I want to be in. Any AWC can compete in a market like this, where price is the only factor. But when quality is a factor, the Wal Mart model of doing business is out the window.

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

An example of using this method is:
Abundance=digital files give those away "free"
Scarcity=your expertise and great picture taking abilities

Give away your digital files but charge a premium for your photography expertise.

I do believe that this has been tried before. It failed miserably. Clients cannot see a value in charging such a large price for your "expertise and great picture taking abilities." That is an intangible product and it is hard for ANY average consumer to grasp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

With that being said... I am not saying this works for everyone and I know that the traditional thought is "don't give away your digital files" but if you are charging a premium for your service why not?

Depends on what you would call a premium charge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

The market IS moving this way. I will compare Google and Facebook to Photography because it is the marketing model that the younger generation is getting used to and I want to market to them because most of my clients are from ages 21-30.

And again, I would like to know the source for this industry information.

And yes, I did see you stated it isn't really free. But the idea of giving away the very product that you are in the business of manufacturing, just doesn't seem like a very sound business plan.

lyncca · 12-03-2009, 04:52 PM

Here is a fun one I got today.

I had already shot a mom's maternity session (they absolutely LOVED their photos), but I was dealing with her husband, who I know, and he bought the whole CD. Now, they got home with their baby a couple of days ago and I offered a free session fee of $75 since I am lacking newborns in my portfolio. Then, they only had to purchase the prints or CD if they wanted it.

I recently started offering the CD and my sales have INCREASED since offering it. I don't charge an arm and leg for it (although people sure think I do). I offer the disk for $350 in a really nice folio, plus their $75 session fee. I figure $525 for 3 hours of work is pretty decent. And yes, I realize there are taxes and costs, but the costs are limited, but seriously, that's more than I make in my pretty decently paying day job.

So anyway, I received a message from the new mom today after her initial email asking my availability and discussions of the disk cost, etc. and she came back with this:

Can u come tomorrow afternoon? I can breastfeed him before hand and that always makes him really sleepy. I have some hats that are ok. What makes a disc so expensive? 2 other photographers (the hospital photography and my wedding photographer) offer the disc for only $99. Is there a reason yours are so much more?

I felt my face turn red! If you can't afford it, I understand, but how dare you ask me to justify my prices? Ok, I saw her wedding pictures and they SUCK. Obviously, if the phtoographer is giving her the disk for $100, that speaks for itself (yet I would never tell her they sucked)! Secondly, the hospital photographer was AT THE HOSPITAL! They aren't going to your home and carrying all their gear, backdrops, baby blankets, knitted speciality hats, etc. And, I have yet to see anything terribly creative from the hospital pictures I have seen anyway (not saying it doesn't exist).

After my head spun back around, I kindly explained that my disk cost more because I cost more and why. I told her that there are varying levels of service, just like with anything. I gave her the $8 vs $65 hair cut example. The funny thing? She works in a salon! For some reason, whenever you bring in photography, all of a sudden you have to justify yourself.

If she wants to go to another photographer, she is welcome, but I am not spending hours of work for $100 (which a good portion goes to taxes!) My husband said, "don't you dare reduce the price! thats what she wants." I said, "uh yea, that isn't going to happen!"

resehop · 12-03-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWangPhoto

What part of Pandora do you not understand? I am not concerned with the end consumer. I am NOT the end consumer. I am the 'artist/musician' in the example and I am NOT giving away my music for free. Pandora is PAYING me for the rights to play my songs for the end consumer. (limited use, that is.) And what happens when I don't have internet? I have to buy the song if I want to listen to it. It isn't free to have it on your Ipod and have the convenience of playing that song anytime anywhere.

I think you have that backwards in the photography business. You would be competing against the 'Wal Marts' (with price as the only factor) and that isn't a market I want to be in. Any AWC can compete in a market like this, where price is the only factor. But when quality is a factor, the Wal Mart model of doing business is out the window.

I do believe that this has been tried before. It failed miserably. Clients cannot see a value in charging such a large price for your "expertise and great picture taking abilities." That is an intangible product and it is hard for ANY average consumer to grasp.

Depends on what you would call a premium charge.

And again, I would like to know the source for this industry information.

And yes, I did see you stated it isn't really free. But the idea of giving away the very product that you are in the business of manufacturing, just doesn't seem like a very sound business plan.

Right.... Just stay with your school of thought it is obviously working for you. What I am saying and what you are trying to argue with are 2 totally different things.

klynam · 05:23 PM

Okay everyone, GREAT dialogue here.

Hit pause and I'll finish the story as briefly as possible - cliff notes version...(and it's STILL long)

MIL gets photos...
MIL presents photo to the "team" for selection...

MIL: Wow those are awesome! (insert team member name) was just wondering if you have any other shots we could look at.
Me: What's wrong with the ones we sent?
MIL: Oh nothing, they're great, we just wanted something a little different.
Me: I thought you didn't have anything in mind.
MIL: Well we don't but remember you said Z was a possibility?
Me: Well yes, so was X and Y which I sent you.
MIL: Yeah well we were really wanting to see Z too.
Me: Why didn't you tell me that?
MIL: Well you know how women are, but your other shots are SO good I'm sure Z will be exactly what we want.
Me: Okay...sure.

So wifey and I set up another shoot - outdoors this time at a local shopping center - and purchase over $100 in new winter clothes just for the shoot - and shoot for about 2 more hours.

Add in another 3-4 hours culling pics with the wife again...

And perfectly retouching the selections...

(why? because MIL was coming up to the deadline fast and promised whatever we sent would be used, no question about it...)
And I send the next round of photos off...

Good news though: Wife LOVES her pictures this time - they are exactly what SHE had in mind the whole time as well.
Cool - we did what MIL wants, wife is happy, all good...

No reply for 2 days, so I follow-up by email...

Me: So which image did you decide on?
MIL: Well we're sort of torn, they're all so good.
Me: Cool, at least you have what you need and plenty to choose from.
MIL: Well, actually, the new shots are too good.
Me: Come again?
MIL: We tried several on the magazine cover and we think it looks like an ad for JCPenny or a fashion catalog cover.
Me: So you don't like them because they are too hi-end?
MIL: No we really love them!
Me: I'll rephrase: So you're not going to use ANY of them?
MIL: No I guess not. But we were talking about it and looking over all the photos again and we decided this one photo from the first group would be absolutely perfect if (wife) was just smiling.
Me: Well I have about 8 hours in this "free" project so far but if you're 101% sure this is a go, I'll do it.
MIL: Oh wow that's awesome. Yes, we're absolutely sure.

Chalk up another hour or so perfectly retouching another (smiling) face onto the image...
And off it goes to MIL...

No reply for another two days so I followup by email...

Me: We haven't heard from you, so I guess the last image was a go?
MIL: Well not really.
Me: You're joking.
MIL: I know, I know - this is so ridiculous. See here's what happened: (name) actually didn't like any of the photos the entire time but the rest of us did so we've been trying to talk her into them...
Me: (and you never mentioned this..?!?!?!)
MIL: ...so I finally pinned her down on what she wanted. She actually found this really nice image on Flickr that she wanted to use.
Me: (shoot me now) oh really, what was it?
MIL: Well it wasn't like anything we talked about so far - it was totally different, in the big city, at night, with snow falling....
Me: (shoot me again)
MIL: ...anyhow she finally tracked down the photographer and she's just an amateur living in California - or Japan, I can't remember - anyhow the lady was really excited because she doesn't shoot professionally and just got lucky with that photo but now she thinks it could be a new career for her and she's really excited so we're waiting on her to send us the photo.
Me: okay - glad you got it worked out - good luck with the project.

another couple of days go by...

MIL: Hey, did you retouch that photo yet? We really need it now.
Me: What photo are you talking about and what happened to the other photo you found on Flickr?
MIL: Oh THAT photo...no that didn't work out. She sent it to us and it was 200K file size. We asked her for the full resolution version and she had no idea what we were talking about and sent the only one she had.
Me: (I'd be laughing at this point if I weren't crying...) ok so which one of my photos are you referring to
MIL: You know the very, very first one we talked about. I told you that one would be perfect if you just fixed her eyes, put a smile on that face too, and retouch in a different background - like a warm cozy fireplace setting or something.
Me: Well you never told me ANY of that, and I just can't put even that much more time into this without some kind of compensation. This is the X-th change you've made and I have absolutely no faith you're not going to keep doing this until the cows come home. I love you as my MIL but I'm done with this project.
MIL: (mildly offended) okay I understand

a few more days elapse...

Me: So what ever happened with the cover?
MIL: Oh we used that photo.
Me: So who did the retouching?
MIL: No one, we ran it as is.
Me: You're joking again right? What about the eyes and background?
MIL: Oh I just left them like they were, we didn't have time to mess with it.
Me:

So in the end...

They used one of the weakest photos we sent them...
They ran it completely unretouched...
It was from the group my wife HATED and was the photo she HATED MOST...
Wife is ticked...
MIL is ticked...
All her "team" at the magazine are ticked...
And I didn't make a dime...
AND I'm out 10+ hours...
AND I spend over $100 in clothes (which I insisted my wife keep as some consolation...)
So naturally...I'M TICKED!!!

Well, that's the story. I hope you learn the following lessons from my hard knocks...

1. Never work for free - especially for family
2. Never accept the answer "just do whatever you want, I'm sure we'll love it."

Oh yeah, last weekend I shot a few pics of my Sister-in-Law for her facebook and dating pages as she is going through a nasty divorce. Naturally, I didn't charge her and what happened? She hated them and didn't use them...

This is me > Stupid

Stupid

STUPID

Don't be ME !!!!

resehop · 12-03-2009, 05:45 PM

Kevin, that really stinks. I sometimes don't get people. Seriously. I think sometimes I think as "family" we take "family" for granted as sad as it is. I have learned the hard way as well when it comes to family taking advantage of what you offer. Live and learn, live and learn.....