Corporate contract help

[dmcantrell]

Hello,

Recently I asked a local hotel for permission to do a family portrait in their atrium / open spaces. They agreed to let me do it, then asked if I could come back and talk to them about providing them with some images of their hotel for marketing purposes. This is a large hotel chain.

I did the family shoot, then called to see about the details of the marketing images. They never called me back. I called them again yesterday to follow-up, and the contact in sales said that the general manager wants 300dpi high-res images of the rooms, open spaces, the hotel, and the convention center / ballrooms. She mentioned my coming back when they have a wedding reception scheduled to get a couple shots of how they have the ballroom set up.

Never once did they mention any compensation for this. If I hadn't called to ask permission for the family shoot, I could have rented a room for $99 and had the same access.

I've been doing a little research, and 1/4 page-to-spot low-circulation imagery for a corporation runs in the 200-300 per image range according to this site. I don't have FotoQuote to get a second price point though.

Anyway, here's my dilemma. I figure they've "given" me ~$100 worth of services yet are asking for ~$1000's of dollars worth of imagery.

Here are my questions for TPF:

1) Am I way off base to expect compensation for what they are asking me?

2) I figure I'd need to ask them precisely how they intend to use the images, what the circulation estimates are going to be, and what medium they have in mind. Am I missing anything else that I should know about the intended usage?

3) Are there other pricing resources that I am missing? This all kind of came up quite suddenly and I find myself unprepared to find out a "going rate" for these services.

Thanks,

Dave

[PIC]

Originally Posted by dmcantrell

...

Anyway, here's my dilemma. I figure they've "given" me ~$100 worth of services yet are asking for ~$1000's of dollars worth of imagery.

Here are my questions for TPF:

1) Am I way off base to expect compensation for what they are asking me?

2) I figure I'd need to ask them precisely how they intend to use the images, what the circulation estimates are going to be, and what medium they have in mind. Am I missing anything else that I should know about the intended usage?

3) Are there other pricing resources that I am missing? This all kind of came up quite suddenly and I find myself unprepared to find out a "going rate" for these services.

Thanks,

Dave

Yepp its like a freebie for them.
Send them your rates for any further shooting.
I would suggest $1000 day rate + TBD usage rates.

[texxter]

Just because they didn't mention compensation doesn't mean that they expect you to work for free. What I would do is call the manager again and let her know that you are putting together an Estimate of Work for what she requested last time you talked, and you want to know whether to fax it or email it, and you also have questions about usage since you're estimating usage fees. This is just one way to make it clear to them that they will have to pay. Read her reaction on the phone and based on that spend 10 minutes or one hour on putting together the estimate.

For a hotel I wouldn't worry too much about usage, as they are not in the publishing business, and they would hire an ad agency for corporate agency - then the agency would deal with the photographer. They'll want marketing brochures and web sites, most likely. But don't assume anything! I'd ask directly if they expect usage to extend to advertisements in publications or not, and exclude this from your quote. One simple way to deal with this is to define some reasonable usage and include them into the fee, but explicitly list what they are. It makes the billing simpler.

Make sure they sign the estimate if this thing moves forward.

Sounds like a potential good opportunity.

-Paco

[mmuhlenkamp]

Just because they granted you permission to shoot that family session in their hotel doesn't mean you "owe" them a freebie. It sounds like two separate deals to me. Unless you signed a contract saying you'd provide images to them in exchange for letting you use their space they shouldn't be expecting anything free. You may want to offer a discounted rate or something, but definitely not free.

Paco's advice sounds like a good way to go.

[L Stegall]

I would agree with Texxter that is a good way to approach them and clearly define what they want/will be using so that you can come up with an appropriate bid for the work they envision.

[CaptainTom]

I've done work for a large hotel chain.
They will expect world wide exclusivity.
If it were me, I'd quote them my daily rate and my fee for "exclusivity" rights to all images I take. I'd quote them an estimated number of days to complete the job depending on what they have in mind. First day, shoot rooms. Second day shoot conference rooms, third day return for ballroom (this may be only 1/2 day rate which is 65% of my full day rate, etc.

If you want to break it down per image, I would venture they'd just hire someone else at their daily rate ( like me ).

[dmcantrell]

Thanks for all the advice, I'm glad I made this thread.

Originally Posted by CaptainTom

I've done work for a large hotel chain.
They will expect world wide exclusivity.
If it were me, I'd quote them my daily rate and my fee for "exclusivity" rights to all images I take. I'd quote them an estimated number of days to complete the job depending on what they have in mind. First day, shoot rooms. Second day shoot conference rooms, third day return for ballroom (this may be only 1/2 day rate which is 65% of my full day rate, etc.

If you want to break it down per image, I would venture they'd just hire someone else at their daily rate ( like me ).

Tom, what do you mean when you say "world wide exclusivity"? Can you elaborate on that?

What considerations do you put into your "daily rate"?

[dmcantrell]

UPDATE:

Well it turns out my suspicions were correct.

After a lot of reading, research, and calculations I sent over a proposal and a statement of work to this organization. Based on the current data points and marketing info I used, I proposed a very fair rate -- and discounted the rate by what it would have cost me to rent a room in the hotel for one night.

Today I called to follow up on the proposal and the contact there told me that they "were not aware that there would be a charge, we thought you would give us the photos because we let you use our facility". They also told me "We all have cameras here too".

[Wil_Bloodworth]

Originally Posted by dmcantrell

UPDATE:
Today I called to follow up on the proposal and the contact there told me that they "were not aware that there would be a charge, we thought you would give us the photos because we let you use our facility". They also told me "We all have cameras here too".

Wow! They basically spit in your face over the phone. Well, I guess that's typical. Mediocrity at its finest.

After re-reading your original post, even if you gave them photos for the use of their facility, the images would have been from that photo shoot. They turned around and asked you specifically for something other than what you were there for in the first place. That is at least one more separate photo shoot. In fact, their requirements would take a lot of time and effort to get the job done right. Let's see them correctly light and shoot a hotel room and make it look awesome... "with all their cameras". <other foul language in my head omitted>

Here's another analogy... tell your accountant, "Nah, we're not going to use you this year. We bought a calculator."

- Wil

[dmcantrell]

Originally Posted by ParkImaging

Wow! They basically spit in your face over the phone. Well, I guess that's typical. Mediocrity at its finest.

Yeah, I got a little red-faced when she said that. I simply replied "All right, well thanks for your time and let me know if there's anything else I can do."

In fact, their requirements would take a lot of time and effort to get the job done right. Let's see them correctly light and shoot a hotel room and make it look awesome... "with all their cameras".

The thought occurred to me to try to explain this to the hotel contact, but it felt like I was being too pushy so I just dropped it.

[Wil_Bloodworth]

That's the best thing to do. When you're not dealing directly with the person who wants the product, you're dealing with someone who doesn't give a damn. They're only there collecting a paycheck and watching the clock. They could care less about you, the client, or the end result of the product.

- Wil

[doctahjones]

Originally Posted by dmcantrell

UPDATE:
Today I called to follow up on the proposal and the contact there told me that they "were not aware that there would be a charge, we thought you would give us the photos because we let you use our facility". They also told me "We all have cameras here too".

well, if it's somewhat of a nice hotel, work out a deal where you can do -more- shoots there for free, and in return you'd hook them up with the shots they are wanting. sounds like they don't have the budget (maybe because of the recession?) to -pay- for photos.

or if that's something you don't want to do, maybe shoot me their info and i'll make a deal with them . i'm looking for a semi nice place to do more on-location stuff.