Commercial opportunity...but how do I charge?

[ramiro]

I just got a call from a place that sells construction materials and sets. They have complete sets for bathrooms, living rooms, fireplaces, kitchens, etc. They sell the tile, the accessories, and they have interior designers that help customers design what they need. They just finished 20 new displays/setups and they want pictures to use in a brochure for promotion, and also to update the site with the new images and update images of other products that they are still going to sell.

They also want to get pictures of each of the 3 businesses and pictures of the building materials like cement, block, stucco, etc. I figure that everything is going to take me a whole day, plus they also want me to either assist them, or do it entirely, a magazine style brochure with pictures and details of the setups.

I have no idea how to price this. If I could get some suggestions or ideas on how to price this, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[CaptainTom]

Here in Texas we'd just negotiate how many head of cattle they are willing to trade for these here services.....

or

I'd charge my day rate for the shoot and an hourly fee for the production of the materials they want.

This sounds like a slam dunk on the photography end, and a real graphic mess
on the production end. I'd hire a graphic artist who is savvy in print materials and have them do that portion. Then, I'd add the graphic artist costs plus 30% and charge the client accordingly.

[park]

With all respect, since you have nothing like that on your web site, what makes you think you can do this well? Commercial work like you have described is quite different from reportage style wedding work.

As far as pricing is concerned, the first thing I would need is a shot list to estimate the job. How much lighting is needed? Are there going to be any models involved? How many assistants would I need? There are dozens of questions that would need to be answered before I would estimate it.

You might consider passing this to an experienced commercial photographer and asking him to assist for giving him the lead. Of course they might be asking you because they have asked one and his estimate was above their budget...

Good luck. It appears to be a learning experience one way or another,

[ramiro]

Originally Posted by CaptainTom

Here in Texas we'd just negotiate how many head of cattle they are willing to trade for these here services.....

or

I'd charge my day rate for the shoot and an hourly fee for the production of the materials they want.

This sounds like a slam dunk on the photography end, and a real graphic mess
on the production end. I'd hire a graphic artist who is savvy in print materials and have them do that portion. Then, I'd add the graphic artist costs plus 30% and charge the client accordingly.

LOL! on the 1st suggestion. I like the 2nd one, however since all they want is 1 image of each setup on a full spread (2 pages), I don't see a great deal of effort on my part to design the magazine they want. But I do see the appeal of hiring a graphic artist to lay all this out and just mark it up a bit, less work on my end. My biggest problem is determining what to charge for the job...still searching and getting informed.

Originally Posted by park

With all respect, since you have nothing like that on your web site, what makes you think you can do this well? Commercial work like you have described is quite different from reportage style wedding work.

As far as pricing is concerned, the first thing I would need is a shot list to estimate the job. How much lighting is needed? Are there going to be any models involved? How many assistants would I need? There are dozens of questions that would need to be answered before I would estimate it.

You might consider passing this to an experienced commercial photographer and asking him to assist for giving him the lead. Of course they might be asking you because they have asked one and his estimate was above their budget...

Good luck. It appears to be a learning experience one way or another,

The reason there is nothing else other than weddings on my site is by choice, not lack of experience on other areas of photography. I simply choose to not mix my photo businesses...I have a wedding specific site, a seniors specific site, with separate businesses and everything. I also do fine art and still life photography, but I don't have a site for those, just for my own personal enjoyment. I have done something like this in the past but since I did one for a friend and another for my church, I did them for free so I never really looked into how to price a commercial shoot. But thank you very much for your suggestions, they are good things to think about and I will.

[texkam]

I'd hire a graphic artist who is savvy in print materials and have them do that portion.

Expect to pay someone $100-$150/hr for something like this. Good luck and post some images of the finished product. :)

[CaptainTom]

Originally Posted by texkam

Expect to pay someone $100-$150/hr for something like this. Good luck and post some images of the finished product. :)

that's even lower than the ones I hire, but they can do in 30 minutes what it would take me three hours to achieve and it's usually better anyway.

[WarrenG]

A couple of thoughts... is the client going to have the creative director onsite for the shoot or are they leaving all creative aspects up to you? If it is the latter, make sure your contract is iron-clad so that if they are not happy, you still get paid. Ideally, you should have a crystal clear understanding of the desired look at the end of the day. If they are going to have a Creative person onsite during the shoot, I would anticipate for things to go slower, and to suddenly become more complex during the shoot as they "revision" things. This is pretty normal from what I have experienced in the few years I have been shooting commercial) and is just something I roll with. As for the design and layout... I use several Art Directors as freelancers from agencies such as Dieste, TM, GSD&M, etc. Typically I would anticipate my cost to be about $650.00 for a simple layout, probably more if it starts to get more intricate than what you described above.

I would charge your day rate for the shooting and your rate for an assistant for the day. As an additional line item I would charge a rate for basic design service of the brochure, with an hourly rate after X if it becomes more intricate. As far as space rates or "use rates" I would just ensure that the "other businesses" (designers and such) are not able to use the images you are shooting for XYZ company on their site, brochures, etc. I assume these are some form of dedicated sub-contractors to XYZ. Offer them the opportunity to license the images at a lower rate for their needs.

Good luck.

[park]

I'm curious. Those of you who use a day rate model, do you use capture fees or post processing fees to try to limit and define value in the amount of images you shoot? I found early on with digital that if I shot by the hour I would be asked to shoot everything they could conceive of and then I had days of post processing afterward. This is one of the reasons I work hard to get a shot list before I make and estimate.

[DEMDeepEllumMusic]

I assume that you have the lighting gear and softboxes to light these large displays appropriately? If not you need to add in the rental costs of that gear + mark up to your budget and you need to have at least one assistant (not one of their employees helping) to help do setup for each of these sets.

So this job should run about $60-100 per setup, so 20x60=$1200 as minimum then all of the incidentals.

[ramiro]

Guys, this is awesome input, thanx for taking the time to respond. Please keep it coming.

Originally Posted by WarrenG

A couple of thoughts... is the client going to have the creative director onsite for the shoot or are they leaving all creative aspects up to you?

No, they are leaving all creative aspects up to me, so you are right, I will have to get a good solid contract written up for this. As for the layout design, I really like the idea of charging an specific amount based on their original requirement, then charge a certain per hour cost if they want something move involved, that is a great idea.

Originally Posted by park

I'm curious. Those of you who use a day rate model, do you use capture fees or post processing fees to try to limit and define value in the amount of images you shoot? I found early on with digital that if I shot by the hour I would be asked to shoot everything they could conceive of and then I had days of post processing afterward. This is one of the reasons I work hard to get a shot list before I make and estimate.

Yeah, I read about this on another forum so at this point I am not really considering a per hour fee model.

Originally Posted by DEMDeepEllumMusic

I assume that you have the lighting gear and softboxes to light these large displays appropriately? If not you need to add in the rental costs of that gear + mark up to your budget and you need to have at least one assistant (not one of their employees helping) to help do setup for each of these sets.

So this job should run about $60-100 per setup, so 20x60=$1200 as minimum then all of the incidentals.

Yes, lighting gear is not an issue, I have some lights and if I need more I have a friend that has several I could borrow, so I don't see an issue on this front. As for the minimum, I am a friend of simplicity when invoicing clients, so I have figured the traveling distance to be around 100-120 miles from my house and back, I have figured a 10 hour day to do all the shooting, I have figured 2 meals for me and my assistant, and I have figured about 20 hours for post processing and magazine layout. So based on all this I wanted to start at around $150/per setup and have that be my minimum. As for the magazine printing I am getting quotes right now but was thinking of adding a 30% markup to that as well. The only variable I still can't decide how to price right now is how much to charge for the use of the images on their website, because although for the magazine there will be 1 image per setup shown, I am sure that the website will include the same image, but also some details shots as well.

What do you guys think of this pricing model I have in my head? What is a reasonable use fee for images online?

Thanx again for taking the time to response and help out.

[park]

That sounds more in line with my thinking on the job. I would try to add in all the expenses as far as assistant, travel, ftp or dvds, and post processing and be willing to bargain. Think about what it cost for them to set up all these models in comparison to a $3k - $4k photography bill. I am sure some of the commercial shooters I know would price this far higher - perhaps double what you are thinking. As far as web usage the first thing that has to be defined is the length of the license you want to price. This price would not include the brochure design work as I have little idea about that and would involve a graphic designer to give me an estimate for that part.

[d2creative]

Originally Posted by park

I'm curious. Those of you who use a day rate model, do you use capture fees or post processing fees to try to limit and define value in the amount of images you shoot? I found early on with digital that if I shot by the hour I would be asked to shoot everything they could conceive of and then I had days of post processing afterward. This is one of the reasons I work hard to get a shot list before I make and estimate.

I had the same issue recently so I'm changing my model to include x amount of shots included in the day rate and anything over that is x amount per shot to cover processing time.

Or if I'm shooting simple product shots where the lighting stays the same and i just have to switch out product, I will charge one setup fee and then x amount per shot.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by park

I'm curious. Those of you who use a day rate model, do you use capture fees or post processing fees to try to limit and define value in the amount of images you shoot? I found early on with digital that if I shot by the hour I would be asked to shoot everything they could conceive of and then I had days of post processing afterward. This is one of the reasons I work hard to get a shot list before I make and estimate.

Generally, I do not include anything outside of the basic adjustments... color correction, crop as needed and maybe a little saturation or contrast adjustment in lightroom. If there is any heavy post required, we charge by the hour or image depending on the project, and this is above and beyond the day rate.

Of course, I am still pretty new to commercial work so I am still feeling my way through the best way to invoice.