Retirement...

[ronocnikral]

So, for us in the biz, what do we do or are we doing for retirement?

I'm not talking, "find something you love and you'll be retired for a lifetime."

I'm talking true retirement, where you have a choice between continuing to work/run a business or to do [fill in the blank(s)].

Our small and meger business nets us about $15k-$20k/year. (That's minimum wage on the low end for a fulltime job, in case you didn't catch that). Gratefully, I have a joe job which compensates me well and has a generous 401(k) match and defined benefit (pension) plan. Between that and pouring almost everything we net from the business into IRA's and other savings...that's all we have going for us.

Are you dependent strictly on a photo business for retirement savings?

Are you saving for retirement? Or will you be dependent on gov't programs?

What type of saving vehicles are you using? Solo 401(k)? IRA? Spouse/SO? Property? Are you planning to sell your business? Other FT/PT work?

When do you plan to retire? what do you plan to do?

The intention of this thread is to uncover a reality in business...either we work the rest of our lives or we retire. I'm curious how professional photographers are planning for this.

Hopefully, we will get some good feedback and stimulating conversation.

[d2creative]

We max out my 401k plan at my office (wife doesn't have one), plus the occasional IRA which i plan on doing more regularly. We're in our 30's and that's all we got for now. But i'm not full time photo, and don't plan on being any time soon for this reason. Don't want to be working the rest of my life.

[ronocnikral]

I'll go first...

Are you dependent strictly on a photo business for retirement savings?

No, it only supplements what my full time job offers

Are you saving for retirement? Or will you be dependent on gov't programs?

Yes. We save about $40k/year for retirement (including my company's 401(k) match). I also get the privilege of participating in social security.

What type of saving vehicles are you using? Solo 401(k)? IRA? Spouse/SO? Property? Are you planning to sell your business? Other FT/PT work?

We have IRA's (one for me and my wife). We are heavily dependent on my fulltime work. We plan to get no value from the business once we "hang it up."

When do you plan to retire? what do you plan to do?

Oh in another 30 years or so. I once met a man while hiking in colorado. He worked for the NPS and he had llamas with him. He was coming up to work on a backcountry camp. I want his job.

[ronocnikral]

Originally Posted by d2creative

We max out my 401k plan at my office (wife doesn't have one), plus the occasional IRA which i plan on doing more regularly. We're in our 30's and that's all we got for now. But i'm not full time photo, and don't plan on being any time soon for this reason. Don't want to be working the rest of my life.

thanks for sharing dennis.

based on the response (or lack of), I have drawn a few conclusions -- either this is a taboo subject (for which I apologize), people are too modest to share and/or dennis is correct about working for an entire lifetime.

am i off base here?

[HotHolly]

Originally Posted by ronocnikral

thanks for sharing dennis.

based on the response (or lack of), I have drawn a few conclusions -- either this is a taboo subject (for which I apologize), people are too modest to share and/or dennis is correct about working for an entire lifetime.

am i off base here?

In all honesty, I think you're asking the wrong demo. Most folks on this board are just starting out and arent seasoned pros yet. You are leaps ahead of lots of folks in here. I would check the PPA for resources.

Ive had this issue since I graduated. Both hubby and I have been self employed or working for a church. In both cases the only retirement plan is death.

I dont think its taboo - I think most of us dont know what the heck we are doing with that. And the PPA are my resource buddies, and 99% of the time, they blow me away with the amount of info and help they provide.

[pbyd]

Conor,
I do belive you have hit on the reason so few people are in the self employeed world of “Small” business. As you know I have done very little but photography for the last 40 years. During that time I have seen up times and down, during the up times we put up all we can to get us through the down times. Being a “Small” studio owner for many years, I have seen people say they are profession photographers but so few ever become business people so they end up giving up their hobby after 3 to 5 years of working nights and weekends and netting 20 to 30 thousand a year if they are lucky, and only that long if they have a spouse that really supports the family with income, insurance, and retirement. I can assure you and others that because of so many people playing pro photography and not knowing how to charge enough to make a real profit it cuts into the money all photographers could make. When wedding photography starts costing each bride the true cost along with a fair profit, everyone will win, the bride and the photographer. This is not a complaint but just the way it has been always, it is just with web sites and the lies people tell on them (“Most in demand wedding photographer”, “25 years in the photography business”, ect, ect.) it does get frustrating sometimes seeing a wonderful livelihood change for the worst. To answer your first question, most of us in the Full Time Photography Business have learned over the years to invest when we could. For those that want to do this and hope to retire someday, invest in brick and mortar, that way in the future if things go well you will have a building to sell as your retirement. I for one have had my retirement made and lost many times in real estate, the stock market and other more foolish investments. Retirement, what would I do, go out and take pictures, I for one being 63 years old, want to continue to work as long as people will hire me. Now, that does not mean if someone comes along and wants to buy my business it would not be sold, of course it would. I can always start new or just work as a second shooter from my motorized chair or walker.
Just saying,
Wayne
Photography by Design

[STP Images]

I believe that "reitrement" no longer looks the way it used to look. Years ago, S&H Green Stamps were everywhere, most of the students in your elementary school class were in Scouts, people could live on one income and retirement meant taking it easy with nothing to do as an earned benefit.

However, it has increasingly come to light that people live longer and stay healthier if they are involved with a business or philanthropic venture. For many, it is not uncommon to stay employed or occupied well into a person's 80s.

I could never find it fun or relaxing to play golf and fill my days with trying to find something to do. I'd much rather spend my time building something - a business, a charity, whatever.

When I was a kid, someone who was in their 50s was on the verge of retirement - now that person is the perfect candidate for a life or career change. I personally hope my office chair rests comfortably under my arse until the day I die.

YMMV.

[ronocnikral]

thanks holly, wayne and todd for your input.

the point of this thread was not to criticize one another's retirement plans - whether it be working, sitting on the porch watching tumbleweed blow by or golfing. i'm curious to know if people who work in the photography world can really attain their plans, and how they choose to prepare for whatever their plans are.

it seems the plan of working one's entire life requires very little planning and seems very attainable. but, i think choosing to work and working b/c you have to are two totally different things. i have no doubt that my retirement plans will have some component of work - be it living my dream of blowing glass or sailing around the world or doing missionary work for my church.

wayne's suggestion is brick and mortar - or in other words, have real estate (a studio perhaps?) that you can sell?

so, is it possible to have a "small" business in the photography world and not plan to work your entire life? I would say yes, but it would require some sacrifices in the early years.

any other thoughts or takers?

[pbyd]

(so, is it possible to have a "small" business in the photography world and not plan to work your entire life? I would say yes, but it would require some sacrifices in the early years.)

There was such a time and there maybe a time in the future, I just don't see it happening. As big as Houston is we have very few full-time (one income) photography studios, that have been in business for enough years to say they will retire from photography alone. Until great changes happen to let the client know what a studio can offer, the web site partime shooters will take away most of the income that in the past supported full time photographers.

Not crying (yet) just saying,
Wayne
Photography by Design

[ronocnikral]

perhaps saving is not planning in the correct way?

The 15 Minutes that Could Save Five Years - Michael Schrage - Harvard Business Review

Everyone reading this should take 15 hard minutes to ruthlessly reassess the reality of the "new" final years of their future career. The finish line has become elusive; the goal posts have been pushed back. Based on your current skill set and competences, what do you think your workday will look like when you're 70? Are you comfortable with the probability that you will be managing employees younger than your grandchildren? Temperamentally, do you think you'll add more value as a mentor, a partner, or part-timer? More important, what will your (much) younger boss think?

[L Stegall]

Originally Posted by ronocnikral

perhaps saving is not planning in the correct way?

The 15 Minutes that Could Save Five Years - Michael Schrage - Harvard Business Review

I just read that article and, while I am not a full-time professional photographer, your question - and his article - apply across the board to many professionals and small business owners. I fall into that gap between 30 and 60, and the harsh reality is that few of my friends, despite being relatively well paid professionals for many years, will have the type of retirement we envisoned when we first started out in the full-time working world. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[PhotoDude79]

My accountant set up a escrow where 10% of what I make goes into. Yeah it sucks to see so much money going into there.... But it'll be better for me in the long run.

[ronocnikral]

thanks for your thoughts Lisa and Reggie.

Lisa, we won't banish you just b/c you don't have a photo business. i would argue, however, that retirement is a function of wealth and standard of living, not income.

Reggie, that's awesome. Does your accountant do that for all her/his clients? Do you hope to do something else some day?

[PhotoDude79]

I don't know if she does that for all her clients... she's pretty bad ass thou. As far as me doing something else, you knew retirement wise or job wise?

[kayumangi]

I'll jump in, though am one of the newbs that Holly described and one of the part timers that Wayne dislike =)

Personally I don't believe in retirement, because when I grow older I'd want something to do. My grand parents were literally working till the day they died. Not because they needed to financially, but because they had to stay fit, they had to stay sane and their regular work (farmers) made them healthy and sharp.

If the concern is for financial stability then yes I agree to save up but to stop working at a certain date and time, I don't know, most likely I'll continue shooting till I can no longer hold a camera.

Right now, I'm not saving anything for myself yet, I'm saving up for my daughters college funds. My wife is set though because she has TRS, I joked that when we grow older I'll just borrow from her instead =)