Legalities when you shoot where you work?

[thatsridiculous]

For those of us that have a 'normal' day job and shoot on weekends or in the evenings...

We're probably all known by our coworkers and bosses as 'the photo person'.. On more than one occasion, I've been approached by my boss to shoot at a company event -- usually I find a way out of it. The complications are usually more than I want to deal with.

This time, I wouldn't mind. It's for a really large, high-profile event being held in the Red Courthouse in Dallas. It would be great experience and add events to my portfolio in case anything comes up in the future. There isn't much pressure - usually my boss takes amateur photos himself. They usually hire a videographer for the event as well. My question is -- I make $11/hr working for these people. They want me to shoot this, I'm assuming, with my professional equipment. It's not until September, so we haven't gone over any specifics yet, and I don't know what they expect of me.

What would you guys think are some basic ground rules I need to stick to?

(FYI - I'm a wedding & lifestyle photographer in my alternate life - Avg pricing for portraits to weddings - $300 to $2500+)

My big questions:

the files - who has the copyright? do i owe them a disc? do i charge for it? do i charge for my editing time? do i ask them to have lightroom put on my work computer so i can edit there? (actually possible, we have a graphic design department)

the fee - do they pay my pricing, or do we negotiate a middle ground, or do I keep my mouth shut (and my job) and shoot at what I get paid normally (and edit at work)?

any tips or suggestions from your past experiences are appreciated.

[Flea77]

I would first find out if they expect you to shoot as a photographer, or an employee. That will decide a lot more. If they expect you to shoot as an employee I would show up with a point and shoot (preferably one they supplied), enjoy myself, and take a few snapshots. If they wanted me to show up as a photographer (and pay my rates) then I would show up fully equipped and treat it like any other job.

As for copyright, if I am there as their employee shooting with their P&S, then they own them. If I am there as a photographer (they are paying my normal rates) then I own the copyright, but they may have rights as well depending on what the contract says which we would negotiate beforehand.

It seems pretty simple to me. Either I am their employee at this function in which case none of my equipment gets used, I don't do any editing (unless they want me to do it "on the clock" and on their computers). Or I am the photographer in which case it is just like any other customer.

Allan

[Daniel W.]

Edit: Allan hit most of my talking points here - but for record's sake...

Well, the big hurdle seems to be "is this work?"

- Is photography anywhere in your job descrip.? Specifically events.
- Does your job ever pertain to photography in any way whatsoever?

If yes, you may have to consider this as work and yes, they should pay you for hours working and you should be able to edit during the workday. If they are paying you as an employee to shoot, technically (unless otherwise stated), IIRC they own the copyright because they are paying you to create images. Their money, their images. Theoretically, they should provide the equipment too, or provide compensation for wear and tear on your equipment.

If no, treat em' as a client. A family/friend client, but a client. The reasoning is that your job descrip. does not mention photo, and it's a pain in the butt (and kind of a jerk move) for them to ask you to work with your own equipment (wear/tear) and possibly edit on your own time for regular pay. Charge your regular fees (maybe $5-10 off regular, because bean counters like discounts). You deliver files or whatever you choose but retain rights - like any other client. Draw the line clearly between your 8-5 and this job. Two separate things.

Now, the conundrum here is the classic "never hire your friends." You should never let your friends hire you, because you risk losing that friend. Creating a negative work environment would definitely be a no-bueno. I'm not doubting your work quality (mostly because we can't see it, post a link to your web page!) but it's a risk I take in mind even though I have friends who constantly praise my work. Sometime it's a simple disagreement in style, but you don't want to be known as "that gal/guy" in the office.

[WarrenG]

Here is my .02 cents on the subject. Unless you do photography as a regular part of your "real job" day to day, then this is above and beyond and should be compensated in some form or another. If you work for a company that requires you to shoot, they "usually" have you fill out a work for hire agreement or have an area in your employment agreement that covers this topic.

Example: When I still worked for Starbucks (Corporate / Management) I photographed for them with my own equipment. I received a monthly stipend to cover wear and tear, new gear, etc. Any shots that I took were still covered under the work for hire agreement, and all copyrights were held by the company. I also had to get a model release on behalf of Starbucks... usually compensated for with a free drink.

You have no obligation to shoot this unless as previously mentioned, you are asked to perform the duties as an employee, with their equipment, in which case I assume a "work for hire" situation would apply anyway (though I do not know the true legality of this).

I do agree with Dan that unless you know you can kick butt on the assignment, I would not ask for pay... You might consider some "paid time off" or something to that affect, or, you might just accept it for the ability to use the images. On the other hand, if you know you will "kill it" than negotiate the deal just like any other asignment. Do not forget that you will still need to address the Model Release situation with the company.

Have fun,

W

[zebulus]

I get asked to shoot stuff for my company as well. I have never been given extra compensation for it, because I have never asked for it.

However, I have had my work mounted, framed, and hung on the wall for all our clients to see. I have also had my shots featured in the company newsletter.

They pay me well and treat me well, so I dont mind doing this. I look at it this way, its just one more thing im helping them save money on, and im adding value to them by doing so.

I always shoot on company time anyway, so whats the difference?

I would rather take a few pics my camera during company time than be hard nosed about it and stand in the unemployment line.

Thats my take on it.

[STP Images]

It should be a paid gig for you. I am amazed at the number of folks who contact pro or semi-pro photographers expecting events to be photographed for free. I don't call people at ExxonMobil and ask for free gasoline for a "blog credit", or Kroger for some free groceries for the "exposure". Let them know you are shooting events as supplemental income and that you'd be happy to give them a token discount from your hourly rate (if you are). Let them know that you will deliver the edited and culled images on CD once your invoice has been paid in full with sales tax included.

If they balk at that, I ASSURE you that you don't want to be mired in the quagmire that follows a nebulous photography assignment from your employer. Go to the event as an employee and enjoy it if they can't hire you at your rates, but don't shoot it for free.

[thatsridiculous]

Thanks for all the great responses guys! I definitely do not do photography as part of my job, so I agree- they need to decide whether I'm doing this as an employee or as a hired photographer and we can go from there. I don't know why I didn't think of that before - it seems so obvious. I always include a model release in my contract, so if goes that direction that's covered too. And Dan - my site is www.heathermountphotography.com.

Once again, thanks for the great help! Once we get down to brass tax on it I'll let ya'll know how it went.

[ppcass]

Heather, a big part of my job for the company I work for is photography (product, website, corporate events that they send me to on the clock) As a result I do not shoot anything like what you are talking about. It just blurs the lines and sets you up to be taken advantage of, in my opinion.

[ronocnikral]

my wife worked as a photo editor at a souvenir company for a couple of years. the chump owner would send her out with the company's camera and have her get shots he wanted on post cards and his other material. sometimes she used her own equipment. finally, my wife got sick of it as it wasn't part of her job description and they parted on mutual terms. wifey had her wedding business which she survived on for a couple years. the company called back a couple years after she left and wanted her back. she went back part time and made clear she wasn't going to take pictures as an employee (or "for hire"). they asked her to put a quote together to go shoot some stuff in idaho...the wife's boss went instead...

the bummer is my wife got some really good shots while taking pictures as an employee and she doesn't own them. we can buy the postcards cheap though!!

just weigh your options carefully! let us know how it turns out.

[wandrson]

Originally Posted by thatsridiculous

Thanks for all the great responses guys! I definitely do not do photography as part of my job, so I agree- they need to decide whether I'm doing this as an employee or as a hired photographer and we can go from there. I don't know why I didn't think of that before - it seems so obvious. I always include a model release in my contract, so if goes that direction that's covered too. And Dan - my site is www.heathermountphotography.com.

Once again, thanks for the great help! Once we get down to brass tax on it I'll let ya'll know how it went.

Most contracts I have signed or have had signed for me include the phrase in the job description of "Other duties as required." When dealing with an employee who has unusual skills I have occasionally requested that they perform tasks unusual for their job description. In my opinion, as an employer, an employee who balks at what I perceive to be a minor task is likely to be not well thought of. Remember that most folks do not perceive photography to be a "skilled" activity.

I would be very cautious on how you approach this, particularly if your employer is not aware of your second business (as a business). The issue is not what you perceive the task is but what your employer believes it to be. A key element to successfully discussing this with them is to understand where they are coming from and explaining your side without coming across in a negative manner. Something that could be very tricky!

Good luck!

[utdbear]

I am having this exact issue come up at my place of work. The HR Department contacted me and asked me if I would shoot headshots of all our employees here. They also told me they'd pay for any expenses I incurred. I agreed and told them I'd like to work as if I was a vendor. They agreed and we're working out a deal. In this deal I'll hold the copyright, but they will have full rights to the images to use as they see fit.

[L Stegall]

Originally Posted by utdbear

I am having this exact issue come up at my place of work. The HR Department contacted me and asked me if I would shoot headshots of all our employees here. They also told me they'd pay for any expenses I incurred. I agreed and told them I'd like to work as if I was a vendor. They agreed and we're working out a deal. In this deal I'll hold the copyright, but they will have full rights to the images to use as they see fit.

Well, if they would reimburse you for that 85 mm f/1.2 L II "expense" that you would need to incur to do those headshots just so, then that could be a win-win!

[MT Stringer]

No cameras allowed in the plant. Exceptions will be handled through the HR representative/Plant Manger.

However, many years ago (30 +), I was allowed special permission to bring in my gear and taking photos (slides) for training purposes. They bought the film and I shot up the unit with as much detail as I could and still make the composition look halfway decent. Inside equipment that is normally 1100 deg F or 650 psi. Stuff the new guys have never seen like the insides of a steam turbine. For as I know, the slides are still there and sometimes get looked at.