Dealing with ISD's?

[philnT4]

I've shot thousands of photos for a local Senior High School as a volunteer and decided to venture into uncharted waters (for me) by asking if I could shoot football games, soccer, etc. and actually make a small amount of money on the photos. Wow, the response made it sound as though I were a criminal! Lots of legal talk came from the first person I emailed. Essentially, they've told me that the district absolutely has the right to restrict access to the students and also may charge an access fee for selling photos if they decide to allow me to do so. I'm no attorney, but from what I understand, I can show up at any event with my camera and take pictures to my hearts content as long as the public is invited. Obviously there are certain things that I can't do such as sell any photos commercially without consent from those in the photo. Anyone else do this without issue, or should I just let this one go?

[texkam]

I think PISD is one of the most restrictive, but yeah, they all are going to make you jump through hoops and over hurdles. While the public may be invited, the public accepts their conditions while on their property.

make a small amount of money

All I know is there are bunches of folks all fighting over a few bucks. Good luck.

[philnT4]

I'm fully aware that there are no less than 6 or so photographers at the games and that making any real money would be tough, but there still seems to be demand for the photos. It's certainly not worth a full scale assault against the PISD attorneys. After all, my kids will still have to attend school here!

[texpic]

It is not a public place.

[Kalrog]

Originally Posted by texpic

It is not a public place.

Amazing that something I paid for (with public money from my tax dollars) isn't considered public.

[philnT4]

This is one of those sticky topics that has no answer. I'll see what the end result is but I find it hard to believe that PISD will try to keep me from shooting photos at games. From what I've read, even though not technically a "public place," when the public is invited it's hard to restrict photos.

[csa]

It's not hard to restrict sideline access though. Schools are bound by federal privacy laws (FERPA). Schools and their properties are considered private property by law thereby giving them the right to set restrictions. You have to have a criminal background check now to be a parent volunteer on a field trip. District publications have privacy guidelines as well. If a parent signs a no disclosure option, then the kid's photo can't even appear in the school newspaper or yearbook. Your best bet if you're really interested is to speak to the booster clubs who might be able to offer you access and potential clients through a sort of "backdoor" option that basically does not involve the people in the admin office.

[philnT4]

I'm currently serving as a volunteer and have passed all of the background checks. It was the band booster club that asked me to shoot photos and I've been involved with them all year. I've had no complaints with the way that I've operated. In fact, I get kudos from parents all the time stating that the photos are great. They school has absolutely no issue with someone shooting photos as long as they are free. I had access to the sidelines and was very careful to shoot only the band and not the football team because there were at least 2-3 others that were shooting those pictures for profit. When I stated that I would like to cover some other events for profit, suddenly everything changed. Here's the thing that bugs me. This is still a cheap service to the kids and their families. If they like the photos, they simply download or order prints. If not, they don't. It takes pretty expensive gear to get these photos in poor lighting. My gear is close to $6K. I fully understand that the district has the right and responsibility to protect the privacy of the kids but I think this is taking it just a tad bit too far. It does chap my little hiney to have photographed the band at no charge with absolutely no problem at all, but now the game has changed. I fail to see the difference between the bands smugmug site and my own. We have posted to the bands site all year with no passwords. Anyone could view and download the images at no cost. My site would be the same setup but I might actually make a buck or two to help offset the cost of the gear that it takes to get these images. It's just a hard pill to swallow.

[texkam]

It is not a public place.

I would argue it is a public place (tax dollars), but with restrictions for the safety of kids enacted by us (the voters) through school board trustees that we elect.

Your best bet if you're really interested is to speak to the booster clubs who might be able to offer you access and potential clients through a sort of "backdoor" option that basically does not involve the people in the admin office.

Wrong. If you are shooting for profit then you are crossing their line, you are a vendor not a volunteer, plus no booster organization wants to go there.

I find it hard to believe that PISD will try to keep me from shooting photos at games. From what I've read, even though not technically a "public place," when the public is invited it's hard to restrict photos.

They can basically do whatever they wish under the name of safety. The public is invited as their guest and must accept their rules if they wish to attend. Conversely, Saturday's Plano Christmas Parade will feature students (marching bands) from the PISD, however the venue will be public streets, so in this case the district has no control over for profit photographers. Of course theoretically the city could. ...and so it goes : )

[philnT4]

Well, for the little money that I'd make, probably not worth it! I enjoyed shooting as a volunteer and will likely remain that way. I'll get back to shooting cows for profit. Hopefully they have no attorneys! Thanks for everyone's input.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by philnT4

It does chap my little hiney to have photographed the band at no charge with absolutely no problem at all, but now the game has changed. I fail to see the difference between the bands smugmug site and my own. We have posted to the bands site all year with no passwords. Anyone could view and download the images at no cost. My site would be the same setup but I might actually make a buck or two to help offset the cost of the gear that it takes to get these images. It's just a hard pill to swallow.

Listen, don't hate the district... you made the choice to do it for free all this time, and you were not required to buy the equipment for the task (i.e. - the band did not ask you to buy the cameras so you could take the photos). This is not meant to be harsh, just the simple reality of the issue. If I take a low paying job from a client, I cannot get hacked at the client... I chose to accept the assignment!

For the school to ok your site they would in essence be endorsing a "for profit" company and that creates all sorts of issues for them. If you want to be an official photographer, I suggest getting in on the bidding process when they roll out the next RFP, as I feel you will find it rather "enlightening" (spoken from first hand experience).

[philnT4]

I don't hate the district by any stretch of the imagination, but the simple fact stands that everything was fine while it was a volunteer position. Nothing would change in the area of student security. And I certainly did not buy all of my gear for shooting at school games. I was born, but not yesterday. My headaches will be smaller and less severe if I just remain a volunteer. I just have to watch out for those that actually do make money. They probably won't like the fact that I'm giving away my photos.

[philnT4]

I appreciate all of the input from everyone that's responded. It's made things a little easier to understand and my thoughts about the simplicity of the issue have certainly changed. I had most of my gear prior to volunteering for the schools band booster club (that's why they asked me to shoot) so it's not as though I've been furloughed after buying expensive gear. This is certainly not a win - win situation for anyone. Honestly, I've not even received the "official" stance from the district but I am pretty certain it's not going to give me the "thumbs up." I've had awkward looks from professionals while on the field as though I'm treading on their territory even though I was issued a pass to be there. In the past, I think most of the "volunteers" had set ups that were nothing close to pro gear so the threat was minimal. The first time I hit the field this past season, I was approached by a pro and asked what I was doing. I explained that I was shooting only the band as a volunteer and he seemed to accept that. I understand that a true "pro" is doing this for a living. I'm not, so I can understand someone glaring at me while on the field. My feeling is this, I'm not here to make a million dollars, but rather to provide the students and their families with photos that can be shared and passed down through the years. Times are tough and competition is just going to increase in the coming years. I'm certainly not going to bankrupt anyone and have no intention of harming those that are profiting from shooting the school events. I was wrong to feel the way I did initially and reading the posts from those that have responded has certainly opened my eyes.
I hope everyone has a good Holiday Season!

[SupaDave03]

School is not a public place not anyone can walk into your childs school without just cause or reason.... All doors are locked and everyone who comes into the school has to sign in with the front office before entering.

[ldelacruz]

You might not bankrupt them but when you think about the thousands of hobbyists that go out and do exactly what your trying to do then it probably makes an impact on someone's livelihood. I personally wouldn't do it because it is affecting someone's family.