Business hurting due to non-professionals.

[Cajungaltx]

whine whine whine...



Sorry... I had to use that icon... ;-)

Everything is changing.... it has for such a long time....let them buy equipment... it brings the cost down for me... ;-) `

Information on HOW to do something is SO much more accessible... I mean...there are so few questions that haven't been asked... type any question into a search engine and 1 million pages come up with info...

But... I have this bookmarked cause I find the topic hilarious... in that I'm a MWAC... ;-) Less than 3 years ago I was taking quite crappy photos... I did my first TWO weddings for $150 EACH... and gave them digital files... oh yeah...you read that right...I was an idiot....but so were they...they hired a photographer who hadn't EVER photographed a wedding before....and the 2nd wedding...I only had one wedding PRIOR to that...

Here's an enjoyable read... about the over-saturated market... ;-)

zarias.com :: The blog of editorial photographer Zack Arias Over Saturated Market You Say? You Can Blame Me.

[KJ Smith]

No,

It is being hurt by a uneducated marketplace.

[lscottpht]

I think it might be hurting certain sectors of the industry, but I don't feel that it's affected the people that would consider hiring me.They value photography, and the people that value what we do would not hire someone like that. Just my 2 cents. I think people whine too much about so and so hurting the industry rather than just concentrating on their own business and realizing maybe their negativity is what's really affecting it.

[texkam]

The answer to your question is yes. So what, join the club. The photographic profession is no different than countless numbers of other professions when it comes to this.

I've seen a lot of "good enough" logos posted on this forum by folks who for various reasons don't want to hire a professional graphic designer. But as Ken says, most would never have committed to use the services of a professional in the first place. I can't compete with "good enough" clients because they can always find a "good enough" designer.

How many people these days are content to fill their homes with tons of "good enough", mass produced, poor quality, Chinese made furnishings rather than invest in a few quality pieces crafted from quality materials?

I'll do many jobs around the house myself for the reasons Brad mentions, crappy work and poor customer service, but I'll also buy cheap (and unfashionable according to my daughter) clothes at Walmart because, for my purposes, they are "good enough". : )

[mrsrice22]

So at what point do you become "Professional"? After so many years to say you have experience? After learning to shoot in Manual?

When does an amateur become a professional? After graduating with a degree in Photography? After purchasing thousands of dollars worth of equipment?

Just wondering since this topic comes up so often, I think it would be nice to just put it in black and white what defines a pro and what defines a wanna be pro, because that's what you REALLY want to call them, not non-professionals or amateurs.

I don't think it's hurting the business but then again I'm new and haven't been in for 5, 10, 20+ years to know anything, all I can do is research, educate myself, ask the pro's and hope to not be bashed or spoken down to (or just totally ignored, which happens a lot). If clients want cheap, they'll find cheap and they would have never been your clients anyways and they'll most likely never be return clients either.

That's my take on it, some survive and some fail miserably. To those that have ran successful businesses I applaud you because this sh*t is not easy!

[TxTowman]

Originally Posted by Cajungaltx

whine whine whine...



Sorry... I had to use that icon... ;-)

Everything is changing.... it has for such a long time....let them buy equipment... it brings the cost down for me... ;-) `

Information on HOW to do something is SO much more accessible... I mean...there are so few questions that haven't been asked... type any question into a search engine and 1 million pages come up with info...

But... I have this bookmarked cause I find the topic hilarious... in that I'm a MWAC... ;-) Less than 3 years ago I was taking quite crappy photos... I did my first TWO weddings for $150 EACH... and gave them digital files... oh yeah...you read that right...I was an idiot....but so were they...they hired a photographer who hadn't EVER photographed a wedding before....and the 2nd wedding...I only had one wedding PRIOR to that...

Here's an enjoyable read... about the over-saturated market... ;-)

zarias.com :: The blog of editorial photographer Zack Arias Over Saturated Market You Say? You Can Blame Me.

I am part of this (Industry saturation) too.

And I freely admit I am a crapotographer/ soccer dad with a camera, and all of the other terms.

And yes I am here to stay. Having said that I am learning more everyday, willing to assist for free or near it, pay my dues, and etc...

However, you haven't called for Me to help You, so I am doing what I can with what I have to work with.

I have been shooting "snapshots" for 35 years, lost a lot of great images to dumb mistakes, and captured a few nice images.

So while I teach myself to be a "pro" I will be shooting all the snapshots I can to finance My start up business.

And I certainly apologize for saturating the market even more.

Sid.

[mrsrice22]

Originally Posted by texpic

Here is an analogy. My wife wants to remove the wallpaper in the guest bath and have it textured and painted. We got a quote and it was $600. This is a small bathroom.

I understand why it is $600 ... and was not surprised. Explained to my wife, so it is near $1000 of earnings to pay for this (after taxes). My wife said, "that is why so many people do it themselves."

Exactly ... and it is a heck of a lot easier to take a picture than remodel a bathroom.

I have no intention of doing this myself, just making a point.

My husband and I thought we could finish the basement ourselves. We watched DIY videos on HGTV and YouTube, bought a few books at Home Depot, bought some supplies and away we went.

3 years and probably $5k later (it's a small basement, maybe 4-500 sq ft?) I would rather have paid someone to knock it out in a couple weekends than the months we spent on it. We also "remodeled" our bathroom, it's worse now than it was before, lol!

Okay sorry to get off topic, I just had a laugh when I read this and though of our poor house that looks worse now than when we bought it, lol. :(

[Some Idiot]

Originally Posted by mrsrice22

We also "remodeled" our bathroom, it's worse now than it was before, lol!

to freaking funny...

[ldelacruz]

Yes! It is affecting all the pros in one way or another. I see it from people on here all the time. You have a website with images from a workshop, take on paying clients and then ask an unbelievable question on a photo forum.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by jkderby

This is a topic that I am sure that has been discussed on and off this forum. Do you think that the photography industry is being hurt by all the amateur photographers that go out and buy a digital camera and turn around and call themselves professional photographers? Granted, there are those that are good and this is the way some have started in the business. It seems the general population is accepting this in the photography industry and are willing to pay for "snapshot" results. Your thoughts.

You think that's bad? Just try getting a job as a laser technician!

[Tom]

So at what point do you become "Professional"? After so many years to say you have experience? After learning to shoot in Manual?

When does an amateur become a professional? After graduating with a degree in Photography? After purchasing thousands of dollars worth of equipment?

When it is your profession. Photography is my sole source of income and the majority of my household income (wife is a professional singer.) It pays our mortgage. Puts food on our table. Buys our cars. Pays our insurance.

However, you haven't called for Me to help You, so I am doing what I can with what I have to work with.

Not sure many photographers go out of their way to take on amateurs and help them. If you want to get mentoring and help, you should seek the photographer out.

Yes! It is affecting all the pros in one way or another. I see it from people on here all the time. You have a website with images from a workshop, take on paying clients and then ask an unbelievable question on a photo forum.

And they are easy to spot. It is downright unethical to show pics that you cannot set up yourself. And workshop pics stand out like a sore thumb because of this. Someone else did the work and then you press click.

What I mean by that is, most non-photography people care only about their photos is well exposed, sharp, and not expensive... and a lot of times, they don't really care about the expensive lighting setups, composition, backdrops, perfect while balancing, etc.

They don't care about it until they have had it. Once you have had great photography, it is hard to go back to snapshots for many people.

Given that situation, why should a normal person spend a huge amount more to get a so called 'true professional', when someone with a simple dslr can get the same job done for fraction of the price (obviously their composition, lighting, quality of service, etc would all be in the gutter... but at the end of the day, all that matters to the customer is if their satisfied with their results).

Because you can't get the same thing from an amateur as you can a professional. If you could, I wouldn't be booking $5k weddings. You could give an amateur using P all my expensive gear and give me a Rebel and a 50 1.8 and have us shoot the same subject, and I will outshoot the amateur every time without question. Because I have tens of thousands of hours practicing what I do and I know what to do.

If the "true professional" crowd don't want to get screwed by this trend, then they really have to set them selves apart somehow

This is true.

I think its hurting the industry because so many of those people are calling themselves Professional Photographers and delivering a crappy product. Poor image quality, poor customer service, poor deliverable, and poor follow through.

In other words, those people are giving us all a bad name... and making people who might be willing to pay extra for quality wary of all photographers. They don't want to hire the next photographer who's going to appear on the evening news because they still haven't gotten their wedding pictures a year after the wedding.

THIS IS SO TRUE!

Exactly ... and it is a heck of a lot easier to take a picture than remodel a bathroom.

Anyone can press a button, but not anyone can learn how to really capture an image.

The clients that are going to use these "non-professionals" would never have committed to use the services of a professional in the first place.

I disagree with this. I recently booked a client that had really never seen a nice album or prints. She was going to have a friend shoot her wedding. Her friend told her to give me a call to make sure she didn't want someone experienced with a great body of work. She wrote a check for $3k to book me. She had never been educated on what good photography really is, but once she did, she recognized the difference. It had value to her and she purchased it. It happens every day. Many of these people that use Uncle Bob would use a professional if they were educated about it.

We also have a cottage industry that is preying on photographers.

You call them training seminars, webinars, photography workshops, etc. Many of the educators in these programs don't have a background as a instructor, educator or even as a mentor, yet they want you to attend their program so you can go forth and conquer the business of photography. In some cases, the personal success of these "educators" is why they are able to prey on aspiring photographers (that would be photographers with aspirations, both amatuer and professional)

One of my big pet peeves about the industry. I could rant for days on it.

"Fast Track Photographer" by Dane Sanders... it will change the way you see your photography

I really think Dane and his clique (David Jay, Jasmine Star, Becker, Scarlett Lillian, Stephen Knuth, etc) are a large part of what is wrong with too many people jumping into the industry as 'professionals' and giving bad products and giving us all a bad name as Brad talked about earlier.

Some photographers may say digital made it to easy

They are absolutely right. I wouldn't be near as good or as successful as I am right now if it wasn't for digital.

the good pro realizes that an eye and talent is what makes that image so different.

This.

I think it might be hurting certain sectors of the industry, but I don't feel that it's affected the people that would consider hiring me.They value photography, and the people that value what we do would not hire someone like that. Just my 2 cents. I think people whine too much about so and so hurting the industry rather than just concentrating on their own business and realizing maybe their negativity is what's really affecting it.

I agree with this completely.

What it is really hurting is the poor businessman who is a good photographer. The low end of the photography market is getting trashed.

BUT at the same time, because photography is more accessible, great photography is more appreciated now than ever. That is what allows people like Leslie to thrive in it.

Twenty years ago, there wasn't really a big market for coffee. Sure, Folgers or whatever. Then came along Starbucks. And mom and pop shops hate Starbucks, but Starbucks is the best thing that ever happened to them. Starbucks raised the awareness of coffee, raised the quality of coffee and put it everywhere. And independent coffee shops can thrive, because Starbucks made coffee the thing to get.

Cheap digital photography has done the same thing to an extent. It has raised awareness of photography, raised the value of it, and consequently, higher end photographers can thrive because there is a better appreciation. And just like the lower end or poor businessmen running coffee shops, the lower end photographers are getting their lunch handed to them.

Ultimately, it is good for some segments and bad for others.

[Ducky]

I don't believe amateurs, iphone shooters, dslr owners or $150.00 wedding photographers are doing any industrial work. They do not do product advertising work, they do not do magazine or pro-modeling work or work in many other fields. People who need a professional photographer for such work will continue using them.
Maybe wedding photographers have just been over rated.

[ldelacruz]

Originally Posted by Ducky

I don't believe amateurs, iphone shooters, dslr owners or $150.00 wedding photographers are doing any industrial work. They do not do product advertising work, they do not do magazine or pro-modeling work or work in many other fields. People who need a professional photographer for such work will continue using them.
Maybe wedding photographers have just been over rated.

Thems fighting words right there!

[canon_shooter]

Originally Posted by mrsrice22

So at what point do you become "Professional"? After so many years to say you have experience? After learning to shoot in Manual?

When does an amateur become a professional? After graduating with a degree in Photography? After purchasing thousands of dollars worth of equipment?

My take? You're a professional when 80%+ of your income is derived from Photography.

As to the OP, personally, I think photography is subjective and if people are willing to pay for "crappy" photography then perhaps it's not crappy in the buyer's mind. Or perhaps it is crappy but it fits the need of the buyer. I don't believe this hurts the Pro, much like I don't believe that Steak & Shake hurts Ruth Chris.

Photography is documentation. Go shoot something. Photography is art. Go shoot something and edit it. Photography is a business. Go shoot something, edit it, and market the "H" about of your greatness.

[Tom]

My take? You're a professional when 80%+ of your income is derived from Photography.

I think it is more than that. You could be a SAHMorD and be supported by your spouse, make $300/year in photography and have no other income and not be a professional.