Business hurting due to non-professionals.

[canon_shooter]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

I think it is more than that. You could be a SAHMorD and be supported by your spouse, make $300/year in photography and have no other income and not be a professional.

Sure you could - you just wouldn't be a highly paid professional. Some would argue that the spouses income contributes to their standard of living - so $300/year wouldn't be 80% of your income. The point being, if you are "a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs" you are by definition - a professional. If she had asked, "What does it take to be considered an expert?" I'd have a different answer.

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by ldelacruz

Thems fighting words right there!

Yeah, I know. To do all the pre-post wedding work, bridal portraits and over-the-mantle framed portraits is not something an amateur can do. I've watched pros doing bridal portraits in various venus and it is hard work.

However, does the avarage church wedding/weekend honeymoon couple really care that much. Maybe the reason the $150.00 wedding photographers are prosperiing is that they did not exist before DSLRs and the bride did not have that choice.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by canon_shooter

Sure you could - you just wouldn't be a highly paid professional. Some would argue that the spouses income contributes to their standard of living - so $300/year wouldn't be 80% of your income. The point being, if you are "a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs" you are by definition - a professional. If she had asked, "What does it take to be considered an expert?" I'd have a different answer.

My point being, that isn't a living. I think we are on the save wave length. But 80% of our household income doesn't come from photography. But 100% of my income does, and my income is the majority of the household income.

[canon_shooter]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

My point being, that isn't a living. I think we are on the save wave length. But 80% of our household income doesn't come from photography. But 100% of my income does, and my income is the majority of the household income.

Yeah, I think we're saying the same thing - just getting hung up on the number. The percentage is really arbitrary. Since the majority of your household income is from photography and you're making a living, I'd say, you're a professional photographer. Would I call a $300/year shooter a professional? Probably not, but it doesn't mean they do not know what they're doing. The antithesis is also true.

Do I consider myself a professional photographer? No. I'm a freelancer. I earn enough from photography to buy nice equipment and have a little extra left over to have fun with the wife and kids. My alter ego holds a CCVP, owns and operates a Network Engineering firm and that's where I consider myself a professional. Yet, I see a lot of amateurs that can hook up a Linksys router call themselves Pros, start a business, undercut my hourly bill rate by more than 50%, provide crappy service, yet there's a market out there paying for it. Does it hurt my business? Not in the slightest.

***Rant***
IMHO, photography as a business is like any other business. It's about making money and marketing. If a guy thinks he can do $100 weddings and make a living, let him do it, he won't be around for long and if he is, he'll be working himself to death. It's a bad business model. You may think my shots are crap, as a consequence you won't pay for it. I might think yours are great. The question is, how much am I willing to pay for that opinion?

In my day job, sometimes, I run into the low baller "competition." Do I cut my prices? Nope, I have a staff of Engineers and Sales people to pay. The "competition?" He's only got himself. Do I lose the bid? Sometimes, but mostly no. People are willing to pay for quality work, sometimes you just have to show them why it is worth it. I approach my freelance life the same way. I had a client ask, why should I use you? I can go to snapfish and get my prints for a lot cheaper. My answer? (In a friendly tone, with a smile) "If you can get the same shot with your camera that I can get with mine, then head to snapfish. Otherwise, my sitting fee is x for my time and my prints are y for my efforts." I win some, lose some, I just keep marketing (ever so lightly) and I keep shooting.

In case you're wondering/or if it even matters, after the Marine Corps, I attended the Art Institute of California for a bit before deciding to pursue Engineering at Clemson (on the other side of the U.S.). I started shooting off and on over 20 years ago with a pinhole camera made from an oatmeal box. I've upgraded my camera since then and it seems to work a little better than what I started with. ;-)
***End rant***

[shutterfire]

Its not just skill that sets you apart its the whole package. Salesmanship, customer service, product reliability. You do not realize whats important until later in life sometimes. Our Job is to convince the customer about quality and longevity. When I was in my 20's my priorities were much different than my 40's. So I had my best man be the photographer at our wedding that's right I said I had a friend do it. Long story short, He sat the film rolls on top of the radar range and the rest was history. We had to rely on friends that took snap shots with Polaroids ugh. I got what I deserved but it was a fatal mistake that I regret to this day and cant recreate. The prosumer shooters are going to come and go they will not be here long for $50 shoot and burn cds. sure some of them will advance and maybe become professionals. But whats the percentage? I bet its less than 1%. Its not like any of us fell out of the womb with a camera in our hands. If that were the case the Dr. wouldn't have slapped us on the backside it would have been our mother. So stop belly aching and get off you big butt and set yourself apart. Unless you like your beer with a lot of sympathy. My dad used to always say if you want sympathy you can find it between sh*t and syphilis. You can always do what your doing now if you want. If so just send your business to me cause I need it.

[canon_shooter]

Originally Posted by shutterfire

So stop belly aching and get off you big butt and set yourself apart.

Dang Eldon... You're right. My butt is huge! Am I going to see you on any more shoots?

[shutterfire]

Originally Posted by canon_shooter

Dang Eldon... You're right. My butt is huge! Am I going to see you on any more shoots?

Definitely going to do more shoots Ryan!

[z-monster]

Hmmm, my statement is based on the assumption that the OP's definition of "non-professionals" simply targets the amateur/hobbyist. With that said. Can an amateur not be a professional in all that he/she does? I think so.

I recall as a young lad listening to my Uncle (a wedding photographer) and many other wedding photographers during the "film" days discus how technology of the early to mid 80's were making it far to easy for the amateur photographer to snag business away.

Personally I find it rather funny how this subject pops when the newest technology makes it far to easy for the "non-professionals".

[Murph]

If they are taking photos and getting money, can you not call them a "professional photograher"?

professional
- 5 dictionary results
pro·fes·sion·al
   /prəˈfɛʃənl/ Show Spelled[pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2.
of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3.
appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4.
engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
6.
making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”
7.
undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8.
of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
9.
done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.
–noun
10.
a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.
11.
a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.
12.
an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13.
a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

[daveb]

I asked this same question in 2008

The Studio Photography Industry - Why is it Broken

My answer hasn't changed

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Murph

If they are taking photos and getting money, can you not call them a "professional photograher"?

professional
- 5 dictionary results
pro·fes·sion·al
   /prəˈfɛʃənl/ Show Spelled[pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2.
of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3.
appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4.
engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
6.
making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”
7.
undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8.
of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
9.
done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.
–noun
10.
a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.
11.
a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.
12.
an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13.
a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

When it comes to photography, I think the thing that applies most aptly is number 11:

a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.


I play golf for money. Friends go out and bet on shots. But I am by no means a golf professional. I've made money playing poker, but I am by no means a professional gambler.

Photography is something most often engaged in by amateurs, just like golf or cards or tennis. But a much fewer number of people actually earn a living through it. I don't think that if you are taking pictures of puppies and flowers and hosting them on Flickr as an amateur - but then when someone wants to buy one, you become a professional. Just like winning a couple skins in a golf match off my buddies doesn't make me a professional. When I started, I just wanted to do a few gigs to pay for newer and better equipment - I never thought of myself as a professional.

The amateurs that get paid are one of two things:
1. Fly by night. Run a shop a couple years while supported by other things. They will realize how much work it is and eventually sell off or lose interest.
2. Building their way up to running a real business. Photography is one of those things that is usually best not to dive right in for a business when you are first starting. I suggest to pretty much everyone that the best way to make it as a professional is to keep your business supported by a full-time job as long as possible. Build it slowly and organically.

The only people getting run off by all the amateurs are:
1. People who suck at business
2. People who suck at photography

[Flores]

excellent analysis, dave.


I'm backing into photography as something to do when I get tired of doing what my 'real' job is. :)

I expect it will take me several years before I could derive any meaningful income from photography (at the moment, it's simply financing gear purchases and upgrades), so in the meantime, I aim to learn all I can about how and why it works as a business venture. Your observations jibe with mine. A lot of the complaints about 'cheap photographers' come from the artist, not the business man.

When this topic comes up, I'm reminded, for some reason, of a scene from 'Amadeus' , where his father trys to explain to him that he has to do instruction and take students, because 'composition doesn't pay!' If your depending on photography for your livelihood, your business MUST follow were the demand is.

I'm not sure I 'get' the complaint about 'cheap' photographers ruining the industry. If your product looks like a Ferrari, why would anyone expect to pay VW prices for it?

(and from a strictly business stand point, which company brings in more sales?)

If your perception is that your 'losing' business to an inferior product, the problem isn't the existence of the inferior product, the problem is you failed to stand out enough from that product to justify the price difference. Ford and Chevy don't only make high performance, sexy, sports cars. They make products for folks who are able to drop $150k on a car and only $15k on a car.

[ronocnikral]

Originally Posted by Murph

If they are taking photos and getting money, can you not call them a "professional photograher"?

According to the IRS, just accepting money doesn't make you a professional. You can be a hobbyist and still take in money.

[Linda Bingham]

Remember you get what you pay for. We as professionals need to be at the top of our game with technology and editing software that is what is going to keep our customers. New ideas, new sets, new products, etc.

[daveb]

Thanks Paul --
It is all about value to the customer... If a customer ONLY wants or can pay 100.00 for a session they are going to find someone that can do a reasonable job for them for that 100.00. No matter how much hand wringing that we do about the lower end damaging the upper end of the business is going to change that.

Position your business and cost structure for the clients that you want and don't even worry about the clients at other ends... because likely they ain't your customer to start with.