What's your Day Rate?

[StevenGWebb]

What would you quote as your day rate for the following situation:

Ten days over a two week period 10-12 hours per day

Shooting a sporting event in an indoor arena

All images and copyrights assigned to the employer

350-500 shots per day

Just curious what help wold cost me?

[BrassPremier]

What sort of event? There would be a bit of a price difference between, say, little league and major league.

What are they using the photos for?

[JohnT]

If someone wanted me to do that, they'd have to make it worth my while: $1200/day plus expenses. That's minimum. (I'm guessing as I have no idea what the going rate is.)

[StevenGWebb]

The event is a hunter jumper horse show. The images are for the competitor's personal enjoyment. There are a limited number of professionals. While the skill in shooting these is specialized it is not difficult, mostly angle finding and timing. Generally there is not a lot of moving around required. If you speak horse show, its an AA rated local level show.

[BrassPremier]

Well a large number of photos for a single competitor, and a large amount of time, and you're giving away the rights to the photo. So I'd also suggest around $1000/day. At least that's what I would do. $1000 for 10-12 hour days is $100/hr or less, pretty typical. If you have a strong background/portfolio in horse racing, you could probably charge higher, but then you'd already have a going rate...

Of course that's just me guessing for you. Good luck.

[StevenGWebb]

Let me put another twist on the question:

Are there any members who have experience in photographing hunter/jumpers?

Also, here's a little background for my round-table on the topic. These events are sanctioned in the US by the USEF. To qualify for a rated show, the management must abide by certain standards. This upcoming year a policy is expected regarding official show photographers at USEF A and AA rated shows. The anticipated rule is that show managers can, A. Secure an official show photographer or B. Select 6 from a list of 8 additional amenities for participants. That list of 8 contains prohibitively expensive things. So, having an official photographer will be the choice.

This opens a whole new can of worms. In time long past, the official show photographer was held in the same esteem as the judges and stewards. In the past few years, photographers have been downgraded to the rank of vendor. Rather than being subsidized by the show management, they are generally charged a fee. A number of compounding issues have evolved in that vein. The cost of show photographs has gone up to cover the cost of fees, and the rising cost expenses. Sales have diminished with the advent of digital photography. While a show photographer may be given exclusive rights as a professional, there is little that can be done regarding amateurs who give away pictures. Not to bring up the state of the economy in general.

Now comes this change. In order to satisfy the USEF guidelines show managers will be charged with the responsibility of providing every participant with professional photographs. To accomplish that, show photographers will likely have added contractual bond to provide a photographer at each show ring for every round all day, every day. This I see is a problem. Photographers with no experience who do not have the timing to nail shots consistently expect to make more money per day than the event will gross in sales. Equate this to contracting a wedding for, lets be fair and say $3,000, and needing a second shooter and an assistant. Only the second shooter, who's never been to a wedding but is good at landscapes and makes good at them, expects to be paid $10K. That's about the situation this thing is in.

Equine photographers are rather scarce. It's kind of a niche thing. Lots of people can point a camera in the general direction of a horse and take a well exposed, in-focus picture. Not many know what a horse at the trot, walk, or canter should look like in a picture; not many have a native ability to get a shot of a pony over a cross rail, a 2.9 hunter over a fence and a lofty 17 hand horse over a 6 foot triple. Like every genre of photography, there are conventions and few know them.

Show photographers are falling by the wayside everyday. There's some money to be made but not on the scale of making a payroll of $2400 per day. Up til now, a good show photographer with a decent second could get by. Exhibitors would excuse being missed in a round because two people can't be three places. That attitude will change next year. I don't see any of us being able to meet the demand of photographers and show managers.

Here's a little breakdown: Two AA rated shows on consecutive weeks total project time of 10 days. Approx 300 exhibitors at each, 600 total. Three rings each day. Minimum staff required 4- Someone shooting at each ring, someone sorting and servicing customers all cross-trained and equally paid. Minimum pay demand $600/day per person. Total payroll $24,000. Acceptable percentage of payroll to sales 25% Sales necessary to accomplish $96,000. Market penetration (exhibitors who become customers) 27% or 162 customers. Required customer average to meet payroll $592.92
Realistic customer average is $75.

Quandary, wouldn't you say?

[camera shy]

rules and regs are usually written by people who have no clue what the repercussions may be. They have an agenda and legislate to make that agenda happen an then the rest of us have to figure out how to make it work.

[ka5txl]

Originally Posted by camera shy

rules and regs are usually written by people who have no clue what the repercussions may be. They have an agenda and legislate to make that agenda happen an then the rest of us have to figure out how to make it work.

That's so true in almost any business

[brad]

Given your experience post...

If you have the experience, $1000-1200 a day plus expenses.

Without experience, say me... I would probably charge them $600 a day plus expenses.... raising it slowly as I gained experience.

[scottbuckel]

Steve - this is an interesting question. I shot an event like this with a friend and I really believe you horse and rider are difficult to get to look good. I never figured out where to be and my timing was not optimal.

I think I would charge about $600 for a day, I would likely overshoot creating a bit of an editing backlog. I have charged $1000 a day for simpler event.

Are you actually recruiting or just thinking about your bid to do the job?

Scott

[Snarfy]

Charge the high end, don't sell yourself cheap to horse people. They're loaded.

[brad]

Originally Posted by Snarfy

Charge the high end, don't sell yourself cheap to horse people. They're loaded.

Hehe, how many horse people do you know? All of 'em I know don't have any money -- they spend it all on more horses.

Its an addiction.

[peeker]

Here are some additional thoughts...

You state that the show manager has to provide a photographer and the photos to each participant, but then you state that your team would be responsible for sales to each customer???

Although $10,000 sounds great for 10 days, that is still a lot of work to give away all of the images and have to pay other people for their help. If I had to bring a team of people together, I would charge $2,500 - $3,000 per day, especially if you are signing away the rights to all of the images for someone else to "sell" or give away to the participants.

If the show manager has to provide professional photos to each of the participants... key word.. professional, they then are in the quandary. First time they hire an aspiring professional "aka amateur", and the photos turn out like crap, then they will catch all of the complaints.

You have to think first about the net amount you would bring in after expenses, then the potential of missed business by being out of pocket for almost 1/2 of a month. That will have repercussions to your business 60-90 days later.

my $.02

[StevenGWebb]

Peeker let me clarify. Horse show photographers until about 5 years ago were considered a necissity by show managers and were treated like a part of the show. Many times the photographer's lodging and meals were provided by the show management. This began to change when the economy started slipping. Horse shows are a luxury and the first thing families give up are luxuries. Show managers began looking for areas where money was leaking out of their bottom line. One of the holes they plugged up involved the photographer. Rather than being a show official, photographers were turned into vendors. The covering of expenses went away, then photographers began to be required to pay a vendor fee. Everyone makes the false assumption that photographers are making a killing (even some photographers). Photographers got pinched for food and lodging and had to pay to be there so they cut back. First thing to go is always labor, its the most expensive of all costs.

Photographers postured themselves for the new situation. They were working harder with fewer human resources and making less money. They also began missing exhibitors. For a long time now the photographers have taken the attitude that they are paying to be there so they are under no obligation to answer to show management. All the photographers were doing the same thing operating much the same way. A vicious cycle began of changing photographers. If I missed a couple of prestigious exhibitors they would raise cain with management and I'd be replaced next year. Which is okay, because they would replace me with the photographer who did the same thing at another management's show. We played the shell game.

The situation has deteriorated. Old hand show photographers were used to making $10K on big shows. As discretionary income fell so did prices. Some by as much as 50% while expenses went up both prices and volume went down. That $10K has slipped to $3K maybe $5K but the heyday is over. Horse show photographers made a massive Exodus. The few of us who are left will work hard and crank out good shots. If we are lucky we will be married to our business partners and make the best we can.

There isn't much interest in horse show photography. Its hot, or its cold or its wet. It also smells bad. It is extremely repetitious there may be 80 kids on a single day riding the same two routes three or four times, over and over they come. They all dress alike so you get the feeling its one kid doing the same thing hours on end. But its a very important moment to each of those individual riders. Being the official show photographer is not a status symbol or prestige job. Its work for 12-15 hours a day, 10-12 of that shooting.

The show management plays no role in the photography business other than making sure there is one. The show doesn't buy or sell pictures. When I said the shooters would assign their copyright and ownership of the images, I meant to the contracting photographer. Part of the sales are on-site and the rest on-line. Certainly the contracting photographer doesn't want to be in competition for sales with his contractor help.

I think the problem is there is too much work for one or two people and not enough money for an additional one or two.

The USEF has become sensitive to it's member exhibitors who are making a collective outcry that they are not getting the traditionally popular show pictures. After all they are paying through the nose for USEF dues and memberships, entry fees, stall fees and even an office fee to pay for the person to hand them a bill. With all that paying they feel they deserve a photographer. So USEF will address that the easiest way, by placing the responsibility on the individual show managers. Show managers will probably drop the vendor fee requirement in exchange for a contract. The contract will give one photographer exclusive rights (and that will be the end of "consideration granted") and the photographer will be bound to provide 100% coverage.

Its not a doable deal. While I've watched my direct competitors drop like flies; I've tried to remain solvent and adapt to the market. I don't know how long it will take before things change. Eventually they will come full circle. Photographers will be in demand because USEF says they are required and because the demand on the photographers will be so great, show managers will do things like pick up expenses. Right now we are between the two points.

Thanks to all who have replied and offered opinions to this. There appear to be no equine photographers active on the forum. Any of you other action event folks finding it hard to afford enough help? Motocross, motor sport, youth league all making hundreds of thousands a year?

Steve

[corralup]

Hmmm you just gave me an idea for a new profession. Only thing I can say about this is if your going to charge a good amount do the job and do the job good! Congrats on this and I wish you well. I would love to see some of the shots after this is done please.
I am a horse owner of three. Yeah, a lot of them have money but like mentioned above not all are rich.