Anti-Male bias?

[hdctx]

I've spent the past few months assembling equipment, studying the market, and figuring out how to build my portfolio for the express purpose of starting a portrait/videography business. As I've shopped for lightroom presets, Photoshop actions, web & album designs, and looked for high quality work, it's become obvious that women have become a major force in the business, and bring a wonderful asthetic to portraiture.

My question is, how much of a bias is there against male photographers shooting child, senior, and family portraits. I was having a conversation with my wife about the senior portrait business, and commented that I need to be careful shooting teenage girls because parents might think I have an unhealthy interest in their kids. While I know there are some women who think all men are predators, but is that attitude so prevalent that male portrait photographers are handicapped?

I see the same thing with web sites? The women operated shabby chic sites with perfect color coordination look great. I know I have to compete with them, and somehow capture that asthetic in a masculine way. At the same time, most of the designers I find are women, and they generally design for other women.

So clue me in, are men being displaced from the portrait business, or are all the new women photographers just healthy competition?
BTW, I'm a gray haired 55 year old white male.

I look forward to your comments.

[SueGirl]

Originally Posted by hdctx

... So clue me in, are men being displaced from the portrait business, or are all the new women photographers just healthy competition?
BTW, I'm a gray haired 55 year old white male.

I look forward to your comments.

Truth hurts like a two edge sword.
Men are being displaced in favor of women, younger, handicap and minority.
HR departments with companies assign points based on key skills then
they assign more points for women, younger, handicap, and minority.
So its hard very hard to compete. Not impossible just very hard.
In regards to non HR, small company, and private individual hires {like ports and wedding from individuals} -
older men will also have a hard time with very aggressive healthy work force.
Get Smart - There are orders of magnitude in supply over demand in all photo {way too many photographers}.
The world is full of dum ass who can't realize 21st Century facts.
You should avoid photography as a biz and pursue as a passion and hobby.

Sorry - But I am a young healthy competive dynamic and aggressive woman with no handicaps.
I do not compete with men of any age - I supply and sell equipment to men, women, and children equally.
If I did compete with men or even women they would loose, be totally breathless, and be in awe of me.
Iam Woman ... Fear my Roar ...

Update - Older men photographers are considered by many as pervs w cameras right or wrong - esp with childern and younger women. Many customers will bypass them because of this.
I modeled for many older male photogs when in college. Some were sweet but most were weird.
I personally did not care as long as they payed me well for getting naked and more for erotic.
They got what they wanted and so did I.

[hdctx]

Sue, I know it exists in business, even more in schools (My son's elementary has a staff of 54, with zero men), but I was talking about customer behavior rather than HR departments. There are lots of excellent female photographers out there, and I welcome the leveling of the playing field.
The bigger question is, in order to achieve a modicum of success, are there areas of the business I , as an older male starting a business, should avoid? For example, boudior photography is absolutely dominated by women. Are there other sectors I need to avoid simply because customers generally prefer a female photographer?

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not complaining a bit, just seeking a better understanding of buyer behavior, but I've already told my wife she's going to have to be more involved in the business than she thought. LOL

[hdctx]

I do have a bad knee and need a replacement, does that put me in the handicapped catagory? As soon as I can afford to get it replaced, I'll be shooting wedding videos. For right now, I have to stick to portraits.

[kayumangi]

I think the key is knowing who your target audience are, intimately knowing their preferences and beliefs and being able to relate to them. Once you can paint a face for your target audience you'll be able to determine if anything you have now will go against you.

I just came from a bridal show over the weekend, and it was just me and Allen, you'd think brides and their moms would shy away from two tall guys (with one being a dark asian fella) but no, never happened, in fact we had more ladies approach our booth than some of the lady togs. I guess our good looks were working for us hehehe but kidding aside, we were confident with what we offered, we showcased our work and retold each wedding from the albums the girls were holding as if they were our own.

I guess what Im trying to say is, be sincere with what you're offering be it portraits or videos, and be good at it, as in really good at it then your gender, age or any handicap wouldn't matter.

[hdctx]

Marius, actually I think in the wedding business, most customers prefer a male, and expect male camera operators in film and video. Do male photographers have any success with kids or family portraits? Your advice is generally sound, identify your market, and identify differentiators, but if customer preferences handicap you from the start, it becomes a moot point. Approaching it from a business point of view, I first want to identify the largest most lucrative markets, and position my brand to take available market share. Photography is an interesting business. Many people aren't really in it to build a business, but to pay for a lifestyle. Others don't really have a profit motive. Me? I want to establish something that can continue to generate revenue and profits past my retirement, whether I personally continue to shoot or not. My last four employers went under, were sold out from under me, or merged. I think I'm far better off estabilshing something on my own rather than rejoining the corporate rat race, especially as a white male middle manager over 55.

[Nikonfan]

A large portion of my business involves families, children, etc so I can relate to what you are asking. I really don't think being a male it's going to hurt you that much as long as you continue to get referrals. Put out good quality work and that will happen. People won't worry about you being a creep if their friend referred you. Oh and as long as you are not actually a creep You don't strike me as one though so no need to worry.

As for Senior Portraits, I always insist on an adult being present as a minor cannot sign a model release. This also has the benefit of never putting me in a situation where I would be alone with the minor. It's sad, but in this world you just can't be too safe.

[TheFantasticG]

Originally Posted by hdctx

For example, boudior photography is absolutely dominated by women.

You could do male boudior photography. Go ahead and corner the market. I can't imagine they'd mind a male photog of any age (above 18 yo).

[kayumangi]

Originally Posted by hdctx

Marius, actually I think in the wedding business, most customers prefer a male, and expect male camera operators in film and video. Do male photographers have any success with kids or family portraits? Your advice is generally sound, identify your market, and identify differentiators, but if customer preferences handicap you from the start, it becomes a moot point. Approaching it from a business point of view, I first want to identify the largest most lucrative markets, and position my brand to take available market share. Photography is an interesting business. Many people aren't really in it to build a business, but to pay for a lifestyle. Others don't really have a profit motive. Me? I want to establish something that can continue to generate revenue and profits past my retirement, whether I personally continue to shoot or not. My last four employers went under, were sold out from under me, or merged. I think I'm far better off estabilshing something on my own rather than rejoining the corporate rat race, especially as a white male middle manager over 55.

You have to do due diligence first. Are the handicaps you're thinking really deal breakers? or are they just assumptions? Did they explicitly say that they don't like you because of your age and gender?


Just because you're not getting any calls or if you do get calls but not end up booking them, doesn't mean your perceived handicap is working against you. Maybe you need to update your marketing and sales technique. and/or maybe you're advertising to the wrong demographic. Seniors and Family portraits like weddings are still very broad markets. You can't shoot every family or senior out there. You must find your niche. Maybe the seniors who are into band camp will suit you better. Or maybe families of medical professionals such as nurses would fit your profile. I don't know. Like I said, you must identify who your target audience first. Do that and you'll be able to answer most if not all of your concerns.

[hdctx]

"Sorry - But I am a young healthy competive dynamic and aggressive woman with no handicaps. I do not compete with men of any age - I supply and sell equipment to men, women, and children equally."

I think you chose wisely, there generally isn't a gender bias when making product purchases, but when mommie is looking for a photographer for her precious children, are they egually gender-neutral?

Because of my knee, I'm starting my business with portraits. My concern is, with the explosion in the number of highly skilled excellent female photographers in the market, are they there because more women are interested in being photographers, or because customers prefer to buy portraits from women, especially moms like themselves?
If my skills and marketing are up to snuff, can a guy effectively compete in this market, or am I better off sticking to weddings, corporate headshots, and other markets?

Do women hire male photographers to come into their homes and shoot their babies? toddlers? Do I ignore those markets and concentrate on seniors and families?

I reallly don't know if these biases exist, other than my wife's personal attitude, so I'm tossing this out there for feedback.

[contributor_M]

Originally Posted by SueGirl

Truth hurts like a two edge sword.
Men are being displaced in favor of women, younger, handicap and minority.
HR departments with companies assign points based on key skills then
they assign more points for women, younger, handicap, and minority.
So its hard very hard to compete. Not impossible just very hard.
In regards to non HR, small company, and private individual hires {like ports and wedding from individuals} -
older men will also have a hard time with very aggressive healthy work force.
Get Smart - There are orders of magnitude in supply over demand in all photo {way too many photographers}.
The world is full of dum ass who can't realize 21st Century facts.
You should avoid photography as a biz and pursue as a passion and hobby.

Sorry - But I am a young healthy competive dynamic and aggressive woman with no handicaps.
I do not compete with men of any age - I supply and sell equipment to men, women, and children equally.
If I did compete with men or even women they would loose, be totally breathless, and be in awe of me.
Iam Woman ... Fear my Roar ...

Thankfully, life is more complex and varied than what is stated in the quote above. And that's all I will say about that.

[auddii]

Well, I don't think you need to give up your business.

I agree that you need to be careful around female seniors, but I imagine that the suggestion of having a parent around is a good one. You also might look into bribing your wife (if you have one) or another female to help hold lights/reflector or some other easy job. People might feel better with having a female around. Also, if you are working on posing a high school girl, I would show her with your own body what you want her to do, or if her necklace is askew, tell her and don't fix it yourself. Just because simple things that mean nothing could make someone uncomfortable without thinking about it.

I was surprised a few months ago when someone needed a fill in photographer for a wedding, and the couple specifically wanted a female lead with a male second. Seemed like an odd request since I've seen women want a female to feel more comfortable with getting ready shots, but I wonder if they would have turned down a double female team.

It really just depends on what people want. I know there is a guy on here who does boudoir shots, and the women don't seem to mind. It just depends on the comfort level of the woman, so you never know what you can pull in as a job.

[hdctx]

To repeat where this started, I was talking to my wife about the seniors market, and she commented not to market to aggressively or some moms may think I'm a pedophile.
I was shocked at her remark, but started wondering just how many women (moms) think like her. We've been exposed to it as foster parents for the past several years. You wouldn't believe some of the things parents do to their kids. At any rate, I have no clue if any bias actually exists, but if it does, I can't afford to spend any of my meager resources chasing markets where a bias exists.
David, you mentioned you do lots of family, and I assume senior work. Some of the portfolios I've seen have some pretty edgy shots in them. Are mothers actually allowing their daughters to do poses where the only clothing visible is a UT jersey? Or are those shots most likely from kids already 18?

[KJ Smith]

MyKey

Member here.

You can compete if you have the skills.

In the end, its all about the image.

[hdctx]

"Get Smart - There are orders of magnitude in supply over demand in all photo {way too many photographers}.
The world is full of dum ass who can't realize 21st Century facts.
You should avoid photography as a biz and pursue as a passion and hobby. "

Sue, with about 20,000,000 under or unemployed, I would imagine there is excess supply in virtually all professions other than computer engineers and coders, regardless of gender. I didn't say there was bias, I ASKED in what particular market segments bias might exist so I don't waste my time. For example, I've been a foster parent for several years, and extremely competent handling babies. We've adopted three, and fostered six more. Though I may be comfortable, it is a gender reversal. Just because I'm comfortable doesn't mean moms will be comfortable. It was intended to be a serious question about OTHER people's biases, not mine.

David and others raise an important point. The best thing for me to do play by schoolteacher's rules. Don't ever touch a child period. Let someone else actually pose them, and give instructions to mom. The fact that a female photographer can freely pose a child while a male should let someone else do it is an indication that the bias I'm asking about is real.