Don't want to step on toes...

[ptrd]

So this year I want to get more serious about my photography and actually get some compensation.

Before I was just shooting for myself and family/friends. Nothing crazy but the more I look into it, the more I think I can do it. I just want to start off small with a small group of people and maybe expand.

The goal is still hobbiest with some work on the weekends / evenings. I don't want to feel like photography like I feel about the current 8-5.

With that being said I need to start a portfolio with actual poses and I'm just getting started. I won't be charging for these first "clients" because it's mostly the usual family/friends. Maybe even some friends of friends.

My question is I feel slightly guilty. Maybe I'm too nice of a guy but hopefully I don't tread on anyone's actual job here. Obviously it would be nice to expand my business but I realize there are about 600,000 more qualified photographers and start up photographers. I guess I don't want to really impede on anyone's earnings.

Too nice?

[Howard Barlow]

No need to apologize. This is still America. We are a free market place. Go for it, whether part-time, or full-time. You do not need to ask anyone's permission (well, if you have a wife...), no one can grant permission, as no one is the arbiter of such. (Of course, there are legal requirements to follow.)

Gentleman...START YOUR ENGINE!

[auddii]

I think also, there is more of a separate market between people who want to get some free shots from someone who is "just starting out" (don't know how long you've been shooting) and someone looking for an established photographer with 20 good references. Seems to be fairly common practice to shoot for free to build your portfolio. Just make sure you start with the important things like contracts and what not. You want to be able to use the photos, so they'll need to sign something stating you have ownership, and all other sorts of stuff (I obviously don't run a photography business).

I think the key to this is to treat every customer as a customer (and a paying one at that), even if you don't charge them or if they are a friend. Also, one of the photographers on here made it a point to ask that if clients refer their friends, not to tell them how much he charged the initial clients. Then they won't come in asking that you give them the same price their friends had. (Which also implies that as you improve, you should be raising your prices fitting your skill level.)

Good luck with your business and building your portfolio!

[KiKi]

... i say go for it. someone once told me, when i was starting out, that you can't catch someone elses fish. people know what images they want and who they want to work with. good luck and many blessings!

[Tom]

You want to be able to use the photos, so they'll need to sign something stating you have ownership, and all other sorts of stuff (I obviously don't run a photography business).

Nope. In America, the photographer owns the photo the instant it is created.

You might possibly need a model release, depending on how you intend to use the photos.

[ronocnikral]

one thing I have found, to legally run a small business is a full time job.

gratefully, we do not depend solely on photography to put food on the table. some would consider us hobbyists, others would love to have our photography income. regardless, the number of hours put in is less than minimum wage.

good luck!

[Howard Barlow]

Originally Posted by ronocnikral

one thing I have found, to legally run a small business is a full time job.

I totally disagree. One can run a very small, very part-time, if not occasional, business, investing very little time, yet operate 100% legally.

[dmcantrell]

Originally Posted by howard barlow

i totally disagree. One can run a very small, very part-time, if not occasional, business, investing very little time, yet operate 100% legally.

+1

[txdoc]

Originally Posted by Howard Barlow

I totally disagree. One can run a very small, very part-time, if not occasional, business, investing very little time, yet operate 100% legally.

+1
If you outsource what takes time and is not your cup of tea (bookkeeping, accounting, contracts and legal paperwork, all tax-related issues, office day-to-day interactions, design, editing, etc) - then you can concentrate on the 'photography' part and do that part-time.
Once you realize that a photography corporation spends 20% of the time on photography and 80% of the time on editorial and business duties - then it is evident that by outsorcing most of the business and editorial tasks, you will be able to run the company even if you are a part-timer...

[txdoc]

Originally Posted by ptrd

So this year I want to get more serious about my photography and actually get some compensation.

Before I was just shooting for myself and family/friends. Nothing crazy but the more I look into it, the more I think I can do it. I just want to start off small with a small group of people and maybe expand.

The goal is still hobbiest with some work on the weekends / evenings. I don't want to feel like photography like I feel about the current 8-5.

With that being said I need to start a portfolio with actual poses and I'm just getting started. I won't be charging for these first "clients" because it's mostly the usual family/friends. Maybe even some friends of friends.

My question is I feel slightly guilty. Maybe I'm too nice of a guy but hopefully I don't tread on anyone's actual job here. Obviously it would be nice to expand my business but I realize there are about 600,000 more qualified photographers and start up photographers. I guess I don't want to really impede on anyone's earnings.

Too nice?

Agree with the posters above about you being free to charge what you want (including zero), as long as you run your business legally and get your permits, pay your taxes, etc.

The way I see it, a new photographer will not step on someone else's toes. There is a niche of market for everyone to fit in.
I do not believe that photogs taking pro-bono assignments or working for cheap fees will ruin the market: they just take up a slice of the market that needs those services at those low rates (or free). The established photog is not interested in the low-cost market, so the new photographers charging low rates are not in competition with him/her - they operate in a different segment of the market.

Let me give you an example. Let's say you want to start with industrial photography or something. If you are willing to take an assignment for $ 250 (or pro bono) for the 5-employee copper manufacture around the corner, go for it. The established photog that is contracted by larger corporations for 8k assignments will not care. He/she does not want that client anyway, you do. So you will not be stepping on his/her toes - you are in different segment of the market.
Likewise, if you take $ 1k/2k (or free) weddings, you are not stepping on the toes of the established photog, because he/she does not want those clients - those clients would not contract his/her 10k wedding anyway, so they are in a market segment that he/she is not interested in.

In simple words, you are not stepping on toes by starting out - you are working to find your own market segment. It is solely your choice where you start, if it is for free, for $ 50, 500, or 5k.

Of course there are common sense guidelines for how to establish your pricing system - and those should be mostly based on your costs of running the business. But the costs are also in part your choice, they depend on how you run your business, how streamlined it is, how much cost you face, how much you do or outsource, etc.
determine your prices based on what your costs are, what your work is worth, and the segment of market you want to take.

Good luck!

[ronocnikral]

Originally Posted by txdoc

+1
If you outsource what takes time and is not your cup of tea (bookkeeping, accounting, contracts and legal paperwork, all tax-related issues, office day-to-day interactions, design, editing, etc) - then you can concentrate on the 'photography' part and do that part-time.
Once you realize that a photography corporation spends 20% of the time on photography and 80% of the time on editorial and business duties - then it is evident that by outsorcing most of the business and editorial tasks, you will be able to run the company even if you are a part-timer...

i've found outsourcing to be expensive. ymmv. and everything cuts into your profit.

also, outsourcing also takes time, as I wouldn't just blindly turn anything over to a "consultant" and hope for the best.

my point is, it is a lot more work than one initially thinks. and a worthwhile experience imo.

[Tom]

E. I will have to disagree with you on this. I have seen multiple times that customers that have or were willing to pay higher prices have gone with the really cheap or free option.

I've been the cheaper option before and I've been the more expensive option before. I've had brides tell me they booked me over a specific option where they were ready to spent 50% more than what I charged because I was a better value for them. I had a bride and groom sign a contract for $5k and then decide to go with their uncle who wanted to shoot it for free as their wedding gift so they could spend more on their honeymoon. It certainly does happen every day.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by ronocnikral

i've found outsourcing to be expensive. ymmv. and everything cuts into your profit.

also, outsourcing also takes time, as I wouldn't just blindly turn anything over to a "consultant" and hope for the best.

my point is, it is a lot more work than one initially thinks. and a worthwhile experience imo.

All depends. How long would it take me to do it compared to someone else?

If doing all my accounting took me 50 hours but took someone who knew what they were doing 5 hours and they charged me $300, then I am basically paying $300 to get 50 hours of my life back with my family. Sure, my profits are $300 less, but that cost me $6/hour to spend time with family. Pretty cheap.

[ronocnikral]

do you have an accountant that knows what they are doing, can keep books and do all the rest of the accounting work for $300? If so, please send me their name.

[auddii]

Originally Posted by Tom

Nope. In America, the photographer owns the photo the instant it is created.

You might possibly need a model release, depending on how you intend to use the photos.

I more meant you want to specify to the client that you own all rights to the photo, and they do not have the right to crop out your watermark or post it on facebook without your permission or whatever. While photographers may know the legalities of these things, most people do not. (I'm also assuming people read documents that they sign, which is asking a lot.)