Sell Negitives ? Help

[mivy00]

I have a question I know this has been talked about before but I can't find it now.

When shooting a wedding I currently offer a print credit and give a 10x13 proof book.
Usally the print credit is enough for
1 8x10
&2 5x7's

Has anyone looked at selling a CD with all the wedding images to a couple ? If you do how much do you price the CD for?

I have been toying with the Idea of offering a CD with all the wedding images. For 100-200 dollars.

My Reasoning
Normally I would say I probably make 30 - 150 dollars off of prints that could cost me 5 - 50 dollars. If I placed all my finished images on a CD and sold that for 100 - 200 dollars I am probably making more than I would have made selling prints and I am out .10 cents.

If you are toataly against the Idea of selling the negitives tell me why ?


Thanks Guys

[AndrewCCM]

Depends on package for us.. If higher priced package they can purchase for $395 the digital negs. These are not retouched but only slightly edited and colorbalanced. We sell our retouching and enhancement services for our prints.. thus the price mark up. Hard to compete many times when customer mindsets are hey a 4x6 should cost 20 cents. We try to sell them on the artistic qualities and the uniqueness of the photos, not the sheer bulk amount. Difficult to balance that though.

Good luck!

[cmalana]

Selling digital 'negatives' isn't bad. It's part of the overall business model that you operate. We offer high-res jpgs of our weddings to our clients as an add-on.

[*Mike*]

Okay, forgive me, but I may rant a little here... This drives me nuts! Having switched from film to digital, photog's now seem much more inclined to sell the negatives. What's the deal? I know a woman that was charged $100 per negative, for film, 6 years ago. I got married ten years ago and the price was about the same. But, now, I have client's that expect all the negatives for $300?!

Now, forget for a second that a big part of what most studios do is sell prints. Maybe not to just the bride, but to the family and friends as well. All those side sales are of course gone once the negs are released. But, the studio also looses all control over the quality once the negs are released! Have you compared a WalMart print with one from your pro-lab? I actually use a couple of prints for comparison during my client consults to show what my concerns are and why I hesitate to sell the negatives. Usually, by the time we're done, even if they still want to by the files, they're asking for a lab recommendation. A step in the right direction... I really don't want the prints to reflect back on my studio once someone else takes over the processing and printing. That may cost me a lot more than any lost print sales in the long run.

I find that if someone want the negatives and the reproduction rights, I'll sell them for just over the price of an 8x10. And, they have to buy a minimum number of files - for example the contract will state negatives at $60, minimum order of 100... or even require the purchase of all the negatives, no cherry-picking. Otherwise, I'm selling the entire disc for what I would get from an order for six 8x10's. I'm almost always going to be able to sell that much to friends and family of the bride and groom.

Guess it's a double edged sword... I'm getting to be known as expensive but high quality. If you want negatives, go to one of the guys in town that just wants a quick sale and will hand over everything. You want top notch professionalism and quality, I control the prints. Probably costs me some potential clients, but I like to know that my studio's reputation won'
t be hurt because someone is printing junk and saying I did their coverage...

Sorry to rant. Drives me nuts when clients come in with ridiculous expectations... I'm not a one-hour photo...

[AndrewCCM]

First..your points are taken.

For us, we're still working on a model that works best for us. Over the past couple of years, we have found that our print sales (negatives offered or not) have been on the decline. I partly blame online viewing for some of that. I think the "newness" wears off once they (and family) can view them online. We are opting now for private viewing of proofs. This has increased sales. I also believe that the younger generation is losing the value of prints due to the absolute onslaught of the 1000+ images readily available via slideshow and a click to order for 15 cent Sams prints...(albeit, not professional shots - but the perception is there. It is up to us to change that...)

We are hopefully working our way back into selling prints by selling our talent and artistic qualities as well as premium quality reproduction and specialty papers, etc.
The key seems to be (for us) getting the client to see larger printed images in person. Some of the luster seems to be lost once viewed online. Perhaps it's hard to visualize what a good large print really looks like this way. Also, who knows what kind of monitor they are viewing on for that matter...

When we do sell digital archives..We only guarantee up to 8x10 and note that they are not fully retouched. We do supply them with a list of preferred labs. Bottom line: If we felt that we'd make $400+ extra on prints from most customers, we'd not offer the digital files as an addon. Perhaps one day with the right strategy we'll get to that. Unfortunately, in the D/FW area there is tremendous pressure to at least offer this as an option these days. Unless you are known as one of the top 5 or 6 around here (which we are not), you really have to be innovative. We'll continue to strive to do just that.

Have a good one!

[CobyPhoto]

AMEN MIKE!

The issue isn't selling the negatives...digital or not, it is the fact that you LOSE all control of the quality of the final prints once you give up those negatives. If a Wal-Mart one hour gives them some nasty prints, GUESS who gets the blame?? NOT Wal-Mart. The Photographer gets the blame.

Your reputation is on the line and that is a major issue if you really want to be sucessful in this industry.

Further, you are really doing a disservice to the bride and the groom if you sell them negatives and no prints. I refuse to work with another photographers negatives to print or design an album, no matter if the photographer releases rights to the photos or not. IT ISN'T my work and I can't rightfully put my studio logo on the album.

Bottom line, as a photographer, you have an obligation to proivide full-service to your customers. Only you can really edit and retouch your photos and that is a major part of being a photographer. Not just clicking the shutter button.

I am sure my opinion isn't in the popular majority. But those that disagree with me probably haven't been in the industry very long. Most likely only since digital has taken over.

My .02 cents.

CJ

P.S. and yes, I own a brick and motar studio, do not sell my negatives and pursuse copy right violators to the max.

[AndrewCCM]

Originally Posted by CobyPhoto

I am sure my opinion isn't in the popular majority. But those that disagree with me probably haven't been in the industry very long. Most likely only since digital has taken over.

My .02 cents.

CJ

P.S. and yes, I own a brick and motar studio, do not sell my negatives and pursuse copy right violators to the max.

That's quite a statement there. Actually..at least in our case, that is completely incorrect. I'll just leave it at that and drop the subject. If my biz partner want to chime in (with over 25 years in the biz), he can..

Have a nice day!

[cmalana]

First of all, I'll start of by saying that I prefer not to give the option to sell the high-res digital files. However, some clients want them...some don't do it to be able to print but to retain their pictures. The model for wedding photography is changing or has changed. Thinking you are going to get print sales for every client you withhold the OPTION to purchase their negatives might work for your model but I suspect that most clients in the their twenties to early 30's would at least like the option. I know I chose that option when I hired a wedding photographer - and I refuse to even consider anybody who didn't offer it.

Of course, you can say I'm not your target market - which is fine, and as long as the market holds up for you, then you are fine. Consumers will get what they want - the key is whether you are able to price it correctly. By the way, even the big names in wedding photography provide the option for digital images. The moment you sell an image, yes, even a print, you've 'lost control'. How? Let's say you customer kept their print exposed to bright sunlight for a few months...and it fades; wouldn't that reflect badly on the photographer just the same as someone printing from your files from walmart?

Also, there are certain levels of ability to distinguish between levels of quality (hence the market segmentation that occurs). Photographers are the toughest audience. 95% of the clientelle do not look at images like most of us in this forum do. If you are a business, you have to listen to your customers (which you have the option to define).

Again, I'm not saying give the negatives away, but I wouldn't take away the option for a customer to purchase it. What truly differentiates a $10k wedding photographer from the $200 one? Some clients want one or the other (or anything in between). Provide the quality and value and the clients will be there.

Just my 2 cents...

[CobyPhoto]

Andrew,

My comment wasn't directed at you or any one person in particular. The ones that do most damage to the industry are those that shoot the event, wedding portraits and have nothing further to do with the photos, just hand over a CD ROM with files and dissapear. That isn't a professional photographer.

It isn't an absolute...I said most, not all. Point is, digital is changing our industry and we have to uphold out standards.

CJ

[Killeenguy]

Originally Posted by AndrewCCM

First..your points are taken.

For us, we're still working on a model that works best for us. Over the past couple of years, we have found that our print sales (negatives offered or not) have been on the decline. I partly blame online viewing for some of that. I think the "newness" wears off once they (and family) can view them online. We are opting now for private viewing of proofs. This has increased sales. I also believe that the younger generation is losing the value of prints due to the absolute onslaught of the 1000+ images readily available via slideshow and a click to order for 15 cent Sams prints...(albeit, not professional shots - but the perception is there. It is up to us to change that...)

We are hopefully working our way back into selling prints by selling our talent and artistic qualities as well as premium quality reproduction and specialty papers, etc.
The key seems to be (for us) getting the client to see larger printed images in person. Some of the luster seems to be lost once viewed online. Perhaps it's hard to visualize what a good large print really looks like this way. Also, who knows what kind of monitor they are viewing on for that matter...

When we do sell digital archives..We only guarantee up to 8x10 and note that they are not fully retouched. We do supply them with a list of preferred labs. Bottom line: If we felt that we'd make $400+ extra on prints from most customers, we'd not offer the digital files as an addon. Perhaps one day with the right strategy we'll get to that. Unfortunately, in the D/FW area there is tremendous pressure to at least offer this as an option these days. Unless you are known as one of the top 5 or 6 around here (which we are not), you really have to be innovative. We'll continue to strive to do just that.

Have a good one!

i agree with you when you say it's up to us to change things...
my boss has been doing this profession for over 26 years and he tells me it's getting harder out there to survive.
i've always wondered what we can offer the client that will keep them coming back or add to the "i really want that in my album at home" factor.
i like your take on "private viewing" cause right now we have a proof Cd for them to pass around but it only returns little revenue.

[Kevin Curtis]

First off - let me say I see both sides of this issue. I shot in the late 70s through the mid 80s and started back up in the biz a couple of years ago.

The market is changing quickly these days. Each year kids come out of high school that are more digital than the previous year's seniors. I have a twenty year old daughter who just completed her sophomore year in college and I see the way her and her friends think. They don't want prints in general - they are all digital all the time.

I calculate what I would be losing on print sales in exchange for my selling the digital files and that is how I price them. I am tired of fighting with the will of the free market.

In my mind I give them great images - only the method of delivery has changed on most orders. I could either change with the times or I could continue to send the customers I'd spent hard money on with advertising to the shoot and burn guys. I decided to update my business model.

Kevin

PS. My post is not directed at any single person in this thread. It just reflects my story.

[*Mike*]

Wow, I really seem to have started something... I'm about to call it a night, but I'll just throw in what we do. I always have a consultation with the client, in person, before any shoot. After the shoot, once proofs are in, we sit down and go through the images together. I'll typically arrange for what I think are the most saleable to be matted and put into an image box so that the impact is the greatest. It also gives them something more to hold in their hands than just a flimsy print. I always try to work through the ordering process with them while we do this... it's a chance to see what they're thinking. If they don't want to order while going over the proofs, they take the included low-res disc of images home along with an order form and receive a substantial discount on prints if they order within 7 days. Generally, this works great. (Regardless, they always get the low-res images for e-mailing, blogging, etc.)

During the initial consultation I also cover some of the prints vs. digital images issue. As I already said I show them a comparison of my portfolio pieces and those same pieces from WalMart. No doctoring was done, they are just horrible quality. Colors are off, skin is blotchy... Obvious yuck factor. When I bought the store prints I actually intended to use them for something else, but they were so bad I kept them as an illustration.

During that intial consult, I also have an antique album that I hand them that really shows the timeless heirloom quality of a great album. Who's going to sit down with their kids or grandkids and look at an old DVD slideshow? I am a gen X guy. I understand the turn away from print and the convenience of online images. But, an heirloom in your hands can add some timeless perspective. Same reason I always show prints (5"x5") before they ever see anything on a monitor. Much different impact... and then the low-res images are just a quick reference instead of the product itself.

Well, as has already been said, it all depends on your market. I agree, you do what you have to do in order to survive. It just kills me when prospective clients have had their expectations lowered way down by the last photog they talked to... But, I guess it actually serves as a marketing angle for me when I can make it work.

Well, I'm off to bed. Thanks for the welcome. Looks like this may be a fun forum...

[ascans]

I find this topic really interesting. I was going to post something about some plans we had in our Affordable Scans sponsor forum, but since you started this thread I'll just interject here.

We're set up to scan lots of stuff. Photographers have a lot of stuff to scan (not recent stuff digital, but negatives 2-30 years old). So we're putting a plan in place to help photographers with large film collections monetize them by putting together marketing programs for them to contact their old customers, offer them the chance to buy their negatives and then scan the negatives in for them to deliver in digital format.

The reason I find this thread so interesting is that the opinions are coming from really different angles. We've had friends buy their negatives and I can't think of a single time they've paid less than $2,000. And I've heard that here in Houston some photographers are charging double that even from digital workflows (just a dump of their Flash cards). I believe that my wife would be willing to pay in the $1,000 to $2,000 range easily, especially if she could get them in digital format (for the sake of this argument, forget that we have a scanning company).

Here's the thing... it is unlikely that we'll look through them more than once. It's even more unlikely that we would ever get one of them printed since we got all the prints we really needed within the year after we got married. The reason we would buy them is just to keep them with all of our other digital files which now represents a binary record of our life. The people we know that have bought their negatives are doing it for the same reason. For us, it has very little to do with the price of having our pro print copies vs. the price of printing at Walmart.

So my advice is to hold on to your negatives (film or digital) for a year or two after the wedding with the option of purchasing the negatives after that. We've run the concept by friends and at least one professional photographer and that seems to be the best balance (both the photograper and the customer end up happy).

[Ladybelle2k]

Very interesting thread. All I can offer for my 20 cents worth is that the times have indeed changed. People want it fast and they want it now, the high tech age. Any more when you are at an event, and I'm thinking weddings in particular, you seem to have to push the point and shoot people out of the way practically just to get your job done as the hired photographer. That said, the point and shoot cameras are getting higher quality and turning out pretty good pictures also and some couples get a lot of prints from friends and family that have lucked out getting a good picture here and there. By the time they see yours, which is generally after they have seen a lot of the friends and family pictures, they are only interested in ones that the P&S didn't get. So I guess it really comes down to the quality of the prints and post processing. It's a tough business and seems to be getting tougher. And we won't even talk about the ones that are purchased from you and then Aunty Mary scans them in and prints off copies for all the rest of the family....that's my biggest pet peave, scanning and distributing of copyrighted originals.