Pixtus - Photography Forum, Photographers, Photo Tips

mabusincarnate · **bad idea -** 07-29-2006, 09:25 PM

my wife runs the houston marathon and this year i had what i thought was a great idea. she was quick to tell me otherwise. she was unhappy with her picture last year and i imagine many people were. above that, they charge crazy prices. i was thinking we could get several people along the marathon route taking pictures. we could setup a website where runners could order their pictures. identification wouldnt be a problem because each runner has a huge number on his chest. marketing would be a problem because the marathon already has their official photographers. i have connections in the training groups because my wife does the program. does anyone think this would be worth while?

Clint_Smith · 07-29-2006, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mabusincarnate

. marketing would be a problem because the marathon already has their official photographers. i have connections in the training groups because my wife does the program.

If you don't like the images of your wife, shoot some of her. If you get some of others, make sure to put them together nicely in a portfolio or contact the event organizer before next year and put the ball in motion to get the gig for yourself next year.

Quote:

above that, they charge crazy prices

Undercutting another photographer trying to make a living just so you can get the job on the down low.....piss poor professionalism if you ask me....

mabusincarnate · 07-30-2006, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clint_Smith

.....piss poor professionalism if you ask me....

competitive pricing is a fundamental of a free market economy. competition keeps prices low and quality high.

smoothassilk · 12:56 AM

I think Clint's right, don't under cut the other guy. You might be surprised at how little he gets paid. Some of those runners come here on a shoe string budget & are not interested in pictures for the lack of funds.
Build your own portfolio & get in on the right footing. Nothing wrong with being competitive, but you don't have to walk on someone else to get there.

merock · 07-30-2006, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mabusincarnate

competitive pricing is a fundamental of a free market economy. competition keeps prices low and quality high.

Sweet! So then the next guy undercuts you to get the gig and then the next guy undercuts him. I guess we will be lucky that there's always Ramen......

PeteQ · 01:20 AM

You will undercut him to get the job only to find out that when you get in the door they will expect your services on every race at your new low price and you will probably find out that you will be making nothing. You would be surprised at how few people at a triathlon really want to buy a picture.... Even if you get 10% of the crowd of 700, you only have 70 people. At $10 a picture you make $700 a day. Not bad huh? Now run the numbers at your new low price of say $.50 (from your website 4x6 pricing because they aren't paying no $10 minimum for one picture on a bike right?). Maybe you have a 100% increase in sales because of this super low price! GREAT!!! You now have 140 people at $.50 for a whopping $70. Out of that you need to subtract for your print costs. Let's round it to $.30 a picture or $42 at Wally World. Now you have about $28 left over. And then there's gas to and from and even without shipping costs you are almost broke already. Now that you have the contract you have to go to several events so there is gas and vehicle costs and four hours of shooting time, a couple hours (at least) of post processing. Oh, and you will need something beside the "cheapo 28-80" if you really want decent images so set aside about $1500 for a good 70-200VR/2.8. Divide your profit by your hours and you are working for.... You get the picture.

It's easy for a weekend shooter to try to make a buck and undercut the market, but in the long run what happens is the undercutter usually finds they can't make money at their "in the door price" and either bails on the contract or tries to renegotiate their price. And when they do that, they will find someone standing behind them willing to do it cheaper just to get in the door.....

And last but not least. If they have an official photgrapher already, what you are proposing is just bad business. And should you get that job you'll be pissed when the next guy does it to you for beer money for the day.....

Just my two cents worth....

Clint_Smith · 07-30-2006, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mabusincarnate

competitive pricing is a fundamental of a free market economy. competition keeps prices low and quality high.

I relate low-balling to land a job to this.....

if you are in a swimming pool with alot of other photographers and you start peeing in it....well then you are just swimming in pee with the rest of us then....get my drift.

I am not trying to offend you, just trying to give you my opinion as to the idea....

mabusincarnate · 07-30-2006, 12:38 PM

PeteQ made this big long thing about my pricing that had nothing to do with what I was talking about. Those prices are for someone who pays for a sitting. I'm obviously not going to make any money from a single 4x6 at 50 cents. A 4x6 at wolf camera is 19 cents. They have a nice machine but the service is horrible. I don't shop at walmart because they undercut ;-p

I understand the point everyone is making and to a large degree, I agree. My problem lies with the perspective bias. When you're the consumer, price competition is great. When you're the producer, it's horrible. The entire thing creates a balance.

For example: there's been a gas station on the corner and for years, his gas has been expensive. Now a new station opens across the street and they have price wars. This is good for the driver but bad for the original gas station owner. Now they're both forced to figure out how to cut costs in order to compete. It happens in ever industry and the only way to avoid it is to move to Cuba.

When someone sees my prices and thinks "hey wow, this guy is a whole lot cheaper than a lot of other photographers," he should understand the difference is in quality. I have a cheap camera but I can still make some money (not a lot) because there are a lot of people who can't tell the difference. Those are the people who sit before a fuzzy backdrop in the mall rather than hiring a real photographer. By taking those customers, I'm not taking any of yours.

And please don't be confused. I'm not doing this because I thought it would be a great way to get rich. I bought a decent camera for a vacation and the idea stuck when I got back.

I figured the entire marathon thing was a bad idea. I just wanted the opinion of a serious photographer. My wife already told me it probably wouldn't work because nobody buys the pictures.

Sorry if I pissed anybody off.

ShaneKislack · 07-30-2006, 12:41 PM

The thing you are misunderstanding about photography pricing is that photography IS NOT a commodity. Your market analysis is thusly flawed.

BTW, it is a bad idea. I tried the same thing shooting a local Jiu-Jitsu tourney. Not a single person order a single print. They all said they wanted to but never got around to it.

mabusincarnate · 07-30-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaneKislack

The thing you are misunderstanding about photography pricing is that photography IS NOT a commodity. Your market analysis is thusly flawed.

Free market competition doesn't only apply to commodities. A television is not a commodity but you still shop around for it. You weigh the options and the price until you find the one you want but, ultimately, you didn't NEED it.

Rahb · 07-30-2006, 12:51 PM

I see what you mean, and don't worry, there is a place out there for you in the "profit" side of photograhpy.

For instance, My sister has a "photographer" that she uses for family pictures every year of her husband and child and her. Before they went to shugarts or the likes the of. Way over priced for what they wanted. She found this lady (who could be a member here, I do not know) who has a flat sitting and processing fee. She pays say $100-200, i'm not sure the cost, but it's a ffordable to her. The lady goes to a park with them, or whatever chosen location. Follows them around, and basically does like an engagement pictures style family portraits. My sister loves them because they feel more real as far as composition and such. The lady the PS's the shots and sends them to my sister on a cd. My sister can now print as many copies as she would like, send in email, print onto cards for christmass at walmart or wherever. She can also send them to be printed off from a good quality printer. All in all it works great for her. She gets a release for the pictures and she loves it. she uses the lady every spring.

So, fear not, there is a place out there for you, but like they say directly undercutting a person who has the gig under his nose is a little, well unprofessional sounded good.

For instance, I could do this for my sister for way less since she's my sister, or even fro free if she wanted, but it would not be right of me to take away from that photographers clientel, and her price and arrangements are fair, so it would be worse. IT's not like she's taking my sister for a ride or anything like that.

So, fear not, there is a place in the hobby/money making part of photography, you just have to find where you can fit into it without stepping on toes of a photographer who did the footwork of getting the gig.

my 2 cents

cmalana · 07-30-2006, 01:01 PM

The Houston Marathon generally signs an exclusive deal with an event photography company. You'll have to check with the organizer if you can implement your plan. Taking pictures of your wife is one thing, but putting up a business venture to market the other people is definitely something that will need to be cleared with the organizers.

ShaneKislack · 07-30-2006, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mabusincarnate

A television is not a commodity but you still shop around for it. You weigh the options and the price until you find the one you want but, ultimately, you didn't NEED it.

Yes it is. Anytime you can get the exact same product from multiple businesses (many businesses sell sony tvs) and you are dealing with prices...you are dealing with commodities.

ShaneKislack · 07-30-2006, 01:12 PM

Rahb, that exact scenerio you described is a market I tried to get into. Problem was I was pricing exactly as you described and quickly found out that it's not financially feasable. Quickly lost money...so I'd like to know how the other photog is doing in that respect.

Clint_Smith · 07-30-2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mabusincarnate

And please don't be confused. I'm not doing this because I thought it would be a great way to get rich. I bought a decent camera for a vacation and the idea stuck when I got back.

I figured the entire marathon thing was a bad idea. I just wanted the opinion of a serious photographer. My wife already told me it probably wouldn't work because nobody buys the pictures.

Sorry if I pissed anybody off.

I don't think anyone is pissed off ...yet... LOL

The point I was trying to make was, there is a contract photographer(s) hired by the event organizer. If you try to make even some money by doing "back door" low ball print selling...then you are effectively peeing in the swimming pool we are all swimming in.

I am glad you have found a hobby that you would like to make money. Honestly that is how about 99% of us got into photography to begin with.

But you have to remember that photographs have percieved value. You are not selling pieces of paper. If you can sell a better image at the same price as the competition then you win. Eventuall you will have more clients. By lowering your prices to just get a job or to make some cash by sorta black marketing images from the event is the bad idea. Selling your images is a great idea.