Sneaky Sideline Cameras.

[BabyHopes]

I had a fun opportunity this last weekend to do engagement pictures for an aquaintance and her fiance. I'm doing this as a learning experience and don't really have serious aspirations to go "pro." (I've got WAY too much learning to do at this point.) However, I got to wondering about something during the photo shoot. You see, the groom's mother came along to help hold coats and fix hair. AND she brought along her neat little 8 megapixel digital doo-dad point and shoot. After every shot that I took she would tell the couple to "Wait" and then step in and snap off a few photos on her camera.

I wasn't making any money off the pictures (I plan on finishing up post-processing and then handing over a CD to the couple so that they can develop the pictures of their choice) however, I imagine that if I WAS making money off of the photo shoot that I might be a bit (legitimately) bugged by the sideline photography.

Needless, to say I got to wondering how the Pro's handle this.

How do you keep grandma from tailgating on your work? I'm sure that the argument might be that the caliber of photo taken by her XYZ point and shoot wouldn't be the same as the professional photogs... but still. For every half-way decent shot that grandma takes, that's likely one less purchase from your portraits.

Does it bother you?

Do you say something? Before the photoshoot? Only if it becomes an issue?

[NathanJK]

I had this happen one time at an event I photographed...a lady with a 20D got EVERY shot I took pretty much except some dancing pictures. She then freely gave out a cd of every image she captured to everybody who possibly wanted them, she even mailed them to people who didn't even ask for them! Since it was a semi-family favor I let it slide, but I can tell you my online gallery got over 300 views. However, I got NO sales, nope...not a single one. I even priced everything way on the low side since I knew money was tight for everyone at the event. Except for the lady with the 20D, her and her family apparently were involved in a lawsuit in which they came out on the REALLY good end of things. Hence how she drove a Navigator and had a 20D when the average income level of anyone at the event was probably under 20K a year.

Edit: the way I'm handling this now is that I charge hourly for events...and I charge enough to make it worth my while. I dont count on sales on the backend to make my money, but if I make it...great! As for your situation, contracts always state that I'm the exclusive photographer. I think I would have had to draw the line at the lady getting the same photo as me on EVERY shot. I dont mind other people with cameras at all, but its pretty clear that she wanted the pictures without the price tag, thats not how the game is played.

[Saltwater Servitude]

Nathan,

I've got a friend having a wedding next June and I'm taking either my D2x (if I ever find a use one I like) or my S3 since there are a lot of friends there that I won't see very often and I want a few snapshots.

Would it be best if I introduced myself to the photographer at the get go and let them know I will be trying my best to not be in their way? I'll probably snap one or two at the cake cutting, first dance, a few friends grouped together, but I want the pro there to know I am not shooting to take money out of his/her/their wallet.

In my mind, if I see the pro framing a shot I planned on shooting as well, I want to shoot immediately after them if possible or not at all. By immediately I mean within a few seconds.

[NathanJK]

Originally Posted by Saltwater Servitude

I've got a friend having a wedding next June and I'm taking either my D2x (if I ever find a use one I like) or my S3 since there are a lot of friends there that I won't see very often and I want a few snapshots.

Would it be best if I introduced myself to the photographer at the get go and let them know I will be trying my best to not be in their way?

In my opinion no pro should ever feel threatened or be upset by someone doing what you have in mind, I'm sure if you introduce yourself and are friendly and cordial you'll have no problem at all :) For me, it was REALLY obvious what the lady's intentions were but it was mostly ok since I took the job knowing that I'd be dealing with a lot of cheap people and not making much money, it was a favor for my cousin's wife and a good way to build my portfolio a bit and add another experience to the list.

I really wouldn't even mind if someone shot an entire wedding or event that I was contracted for just for their own experience if they were a guest of the bride and groom or the event host...I only start to have a problem with it when they give all the pictures out for free

[BabyHopes]

The couple I was shooting is getting every workable shot that I take for free. Which is why it was so weird that Grandma was in there after each of my shots. I guess you just take it as a compliment that she liked what I was doing?

Having a clause in the contract is a good idea. At least you know you've said something. Although, I don't know how a person goes about enforcing the contract if you've got a Grandma who refuses to care about the contract. I was thinking last night that had I been shooting the couple for profit I could have just taken firmer control of the situation. Maybe disassemble poses quicker or get myself in there to rearrange poses before the "sneaky photographer ;)" had a chance to take the the shots. (Just thinking aloud.)

[MarkM]

The worst thing a pro can do is to blow up at family during the engagement session or the wedding.
They will remember your attitude long after the photos have been delivered.

Remember,
Many of the people at the wedding will never see the wedding album, but EVERYONE sees the fuss you make over other cameras.

Here's a simple way to get the bride to handle things for you....
When the cameras come out, simply ask family to take their photos first.
Then, smile, lean on your tripod, smile, look at your watch, smile, tap your foot, smile.
After a couple of shots, the bride will realize how long it's taking for you to work, and SHE will ask family to put the cameras down.
Works like magic.

The engagement session is no big deal, but it's important to have a minimum purchase policy in place.

[BabyHopes]

Originally Posted by MarkM

Here's a simple way to get the bride to handle things for you....
When the cameras come out, simply ask family to take their photos first.
Then, smile, lean on your tripod, smile, look at your watch, smile, tap your foot, smile.
After a couple of shots, the bride will realize how long it's taking for you to work, and SHE will ask family to put the cameras down.
Works like magic.

That's just stinking ingenious. LOL.

I know at my own wedding I was fairly strict about what went on during formal portraits. Not because I cared about who took what photo, mainly because I had X amount of time to do pictures before the reception started. And to be honest, I don't really remember anyone else trying to take pictures. (I had a lot of extended family that had unsolicited advice about what kind of pictures the photographers needed to take... but the family actually wasn't doing any picture taking.)

Guess that's a whole 'nother thread? What to do when a random Aunt or Uncle has advice on what photos desperately need to be taken. I know that my own Grandma kept trying to tell my photographer "here put the flower girl here. Right in front of the piano. Don't you think that's a nice shot?" Meanwhile we're trying to get formal Bride and Groom portraits done. (In the end my fairly burly cousins ushered everyone out of the sanctuary and declared that the wedding party needed some privacy before the reception. )

[CaptainTom]

So far some very good suggestions. I would add that I have occasionally run into the "aunt/uncle/granny" wanting to take shots immediately after you have set up the scene, and taken the photos. This is where it is a great idea to have a "liason" in the family who knows everyone and can help you get the correct people together for the group shots. This liason can also act as intermediary when granny gets in the way.

If no liason, what I will do is: set up the shot, making it very clear that I need everyones full attention on me while I shoot. Immediately after taking my last shot, I will step right up into the group and maybe show them the shot results, or start setting up the next shot.
Granny doesn't get a chance to get her shot. She may come up and ask me, but I can be very polite and explaing that I am working on a VERY strict timetable and have to keep moving. No arguments, no confrontation.
If she then fires in the middle of your shooting, you have every right, and would be expected to say something about it.

[Stephen H]

I have read posts to the effect elsewhere that people had just changed their pricing structure to make the money on the initial shoot, rather than depending on anything from reprints.

You didn't mention it in your post, but if you were using fill flash, or off-camera flash, your shots would hopefully look better than the point-and-shoot shooter's.

I've never tried to shoot everything a pro shot, but have taken a few shots at weddings- but as likely as not, they were B&W, or something else totally unsuitable for distribution- so don't just assume that anyone snapping away is duplicating your work.

Some time back, I got to playing with some $1 cameras from the dollar store. I've got two with hot shoes, and plan to take one to a wedding next weekend just for fun.

[Bartman01]

Originally Posted by BabyHopes

...After every shot that I took she would tell the couple to "Wait" and then step in and snap off a few photos on her camera...

Personally (and I am not a 'pro'), that is just plain rude. I drag my camera to all of the family weddings, but I stay as far out of the way from the hired photographer as possible. I don't bother trying to mimic their shots, I go for candids that the pro is missing/doesn't have time for. I would assume that they hired the person based on their portfolio and want their shots and not my attempt to duplicate. I've been to a wedding where at least 5 other people were shooting the wedding party photos from the pews - can't imagine trying to combat all those flashes going off. Now that my equipment is starting to equal (or in some cases ever better) the hired photogs I think I will start introducing myself, explaining that I will stay out of their way, and telling them to let me know if I am ever an issue for them.

The only thing you could have done was assert yourself and take back control of the situation. Keep things moving in the 'interest of time, and the guests'.

[gardener]

Wondering if this practice started as digital point and shoots got smaller and more easily operated by the average shutter button pusher? I see people every day that carry a small p&s or cell phone camera around with them in a purse or pocket and many times, I recall thinking that if they look at the pictures at all, it'll be one look and then a delete, not because they may or may not be good but rather, they've just developed a "click the shutter" obsession and click it at everything and anything that gets in their way. It's part of the "gadget age" we're currently in...
While I agree with you wedding and portrait photographers that quality should override quantity, in the real world most people aren't looking for quality that's expensive when 19¢ prints are available from the local drugstore or Wally World out of your own camera or grandma's (and if you send out for 24 hour return instead of one hour processing, you get two prints for the price of one!). In some of these cases, print and picture quality is subjective based on what and how many do you get for your dollar... Remember, I'm not saying your work isn't worth it to some folks but I would guess that the majority of the population gets Uncle Jack's fuzzy photos and is quite pleased to accept less than quality work since they either don't know the difference or in the end, don't even care about that difference. If you look at the stats, about 50% of these brides and grooms won't even be together in 5 to 7 years anyway.

[MarkM]

Originally Posted by gardener

Wondering if this practice started as digital point and shoots got smaller and more easily operated by the average shutter button pusher?

"Poachers" have been around as long as wedding photograhphers have, but dealing with their existence requires tact.

I heard Clay Blackmore once say that he has an assistant cover all the lenses of the cardboard table cameras with black magic marker before the reception. It's funny to hear about, but an extremely poor business practice.

I do not feel it's ever correct to show your feelings toward poachers. Just live with them, because outburst toward them totally undermines the time you spent in building your perceived value to the client.
If poachers get under your skin, you probably haven't charged enough for your time in the first place.

[Sizzle Pixel]

I like the idea of an hourly fee in addition to any sales. Is this common or do some of you charge a flat fee in addition to sales? I would think that the hourly rate would do the trick.

[lissaone]

this happened to me recently.... I was asked to be the photographer for a wedding and i came with a film slr slung one way and my digital slr going the other.... I basically had people step in front of me to get a photograph and yes some did have better equipment than i did. the wedding party was starting to get pretty annoyed that there were so many pictures being taken and were starting to wilt after a time.

this was a favor for a friend but I still felt uncomfortable because I didn't feel like I got the quality photographs I normally get.


I know brides want to feel like a star on thier wedding day but i don't think the paparazzi should be a part.

[LadyShutterBug]

if mom is doing as good of a job as me with her point and shoot, then i shouldn't be charging the client for my services ;)

that being said, i do have a clause in my contract that disallows others to shoot while i am handling a portrait session. i go over the contract in detail with couples beforehand, so it is generally not an issue. i make it about THEM and the quality of their images. if they are having trouble deciding who to look at, or if another camera's flash is throwing off my metering, or if we're distracted by someone else, the images won't be as good. i don't generally pose, shoot, pose, shoot... i kind of have an ongoing conversation and shoot while we're having fun, so its not really possible for moms or grandmas to take shots "after" each of mine.


as for weddings, i ask that family members not take pics while i am taking pics for the formals. i'm happy to back away and let them shoot once i'm done. i find that a majority of my clients are just doing formals for the sake of their mothers... they don't love them and certainly don't order them very often. i have an exclusivity clause for weddings saying that i will be the only paid professional photographer there.

i have taken my camera to plenty of weddings where i am simply a guest. of course i'm going to take pictures, it's pretty much expected by the bride and groom most of the time. they always appreciate it... but i have never tailed the professional photographer...lol.

another thing to remember about shooting candids is that while they may be "your" shots, the event itself isn't yours. you're documenting the event through your own eyes. someone behind you with a camera has no way of knowing what you're focusing on or "seeing" through your lens.