What makes you money?

[RobyMD]

The more you listen to photographers the more you'll hear different answers and theories. I've heard some photogs say shooting makes them money, where others will say meeting with clients make them money, I'd imagine Jerry Ghionis and other photogs know for there albums would say album layout, where Ky at Ky Signature sells some of the most beautiful large wall prints I've seen.

So where do you spend your time and make your money? Assuming they are both the same.

Time is money right?

[JohnT]

At this point, I charge for my time and sell prints at cost (events and informal portraits). However, I haven't been doing this for money very long so my methodology could change in the future.

[Daniel Bates]

I can't depend on print sales, so I plan on charging enough up front to make a reasonable profit with no print sales at all.

[JohnT]

Originally Posted by Daniel Bates

I can't depend on print sales, so I plan on charging enough up front to make a reasonable profit with no print sales at all.

Same here with events. Most folks just want the images on DVD.

[RobyMD]

Makes sense, but where do you spend your time? Business wise that is. You are only alotted so many hours in a day so what part of your business you consider most valuable so you'll spend more time there? And what part do you think is not profitable but you do it for now and plan to outsource it in the future or you outsource it now so you can spend time doing what makes money.

[HotHolly]

Hey - currently we make our money on sitting/ creation fees and print sales. We classify our prints as "art" so more people are willing to pay an artists fee for them. Our typical family sales are around $1,000 per session. That includes print sales and creation fees. And the demographic has been all over the place, otherwise I'd tell you who's spending that much. Turns out, you can't tell. Some are strapped and some have boats in west texas...

As for giving away DVDs - I think that is the kiss of death. There is no way to make a living off of photography if you give away all your prints for free. Even Sears and WalMart charge something. If your goal is to be a pro photog, I would think that is the benchmark to shoot past.

And I know giving away the negs is highly debated - Im mentioning what we personally do. As a bride, I wanted the negs, and they would have sat in a safe. As a photog it means little - no sales.

So we struck a balance b/t people that want the negs, but they arent interested in printing them (they want them in a fire box, 'just in case'). So, we offer to sell the negs 1 year after their event. By then, the bloom is off the rose and they just lock them up anyway, and we get a little more money from an event that was past its prime.

As for where we spend time - #1 spot is on marketing, #2 goes to clients and potential clients. We sit down with each client or bride to be and talk as long as they like. It IS time consuming, but it gives us a much better feel of what they want - which pays off in the end, b/c they WILL buy more. (eg one of our last clients was from overseas, raised in west texas, with a northern hubby, 2 toddlers - style wise was a bit fuzzy. After talking to them, I nailed down (without her saying) that she totally loves modern - contemporary art. She loves the colors, style, everything. So we shot with that in mind, and doubled our sales).

And most of our time is still spent on marketing. We have been open for about a year now and I feel like our name is still not fimilar with most people in town. We are shooting fro name recongition, and then style association - art. So when people want fine art portraits of their children, they think of us. Most of our marketing is also spent in the form of hours. We network throught the community, talking to different people, and offereing our services when appropiate. That's how I got a salan a few weeks ago. I needed a new hairdresser, I asked one of our clients who she used - she had someone highly reocmmended to her - turned out to be the studio owner...she was an edgy 20-something, I offered her some of our funky images, and she was totally thrilled. We are swapping services - she's putting our studio name HUGE on all the stuff we give her, plus she's paying cost for the shoot and her photos and banners and what-have-you.

I do think its a trap to fall into the 'time is money' mindset, b/c it usually carries the assuption that 'talk is cheap' and a waste of time. If you have your clients respect, and trust, they will be much more willing to recommend you to their friends and family - and that kind of recommendation is like gold - you want those!

Hope that helps a little...

Edit: Woops - I did it again...I made a huge post.

[Wes]

Interesting thread. Like a few others here, I, too, am new to charging for my work. The big problem that I have is figuring out what my work is worth. I don't really do weddings (yet), so most of my stuff is coming from portraits and some sports. Do I charge a low sitting fee + an hourly rate and then sell the pics at a reduced price? High sitting fee, no hourly rate, include a package of images with additional prints at a slightly higher price?

One thing that I've definitely started to do is offer a CD/DVD at an elevated price. The disc gets discounted the more prints they buy. For example, if all you want is the CD I might charge $300. Buy $500 worth of prints or more and you get the CD for $50 (or something like that). I have also learned the mantra, "Don't give your work away!" Do it for one, and all of a sudden everyone wants you to do it. I remember trying to help out a single, working mom with a VERY inexpensive portrait session. Word gets around and now all of her friends want me to do the same for them. How do you come back and say, "Listen, I only did it for her because she couldn't afford anything else..."

Holly - you've given me a few things to think about.

[HotHolly]

Holly - you've given me a few things to think about.

Hey Wes, I'm good like that. ;o)

Edit: I didn't mean hand out the DVD for free. (Wow I hope no one does that). I meant more like, selling the negatives isn't a good idea. Had I sold our negs for $300, I would have lost $1200 in sales at our last family session.

I think pricing all comes down to one thing (assuming you have the basics of photography down): confidence. If your are totally confident that your images are worth your asking price, people will pay for them. So selling the negs undermines your sales...

[RobyMD]

That's more of what I'm talking about. I know the time is money tag seems negative but I think where you spend your time is what value. In your situation Holly you found that meeting with clients is valuable, so I'm sure you charge accordingly for you time shooting and other areas. You can only work so many hours, meeting with clients takes X amount of hours, did you say OK I'll outsource, something else such as image editing or layout, or sales.

BTW thanks for all the info. Keep it coming if you dont mind!

[HotHolly]

We are still doing most everything inhouse. I have been thinking of pushing brides toward GraphiStudio albums to outsource the album design, rahter than doing it myself with AsukaBook.

And since there are only so many hours in the day, I tend to work most that I am awake. I take out 2-3 hours a day for personal stuff. The rest of the time I work. Its the curse of self-employment...its all your money and its all your time.

To help offset some of our time, we take on interns. They work well as 2nd shooters and we let the better ones have a hand at image processing. We plan on hiring the interns that excel and mesh with our studio image. Then we'll have 3-5 people on staff.

We currently have 2 primary shooters and 1 assistant/ 2nd shooter. We are getting ready to hire a 4th person - the intern. I love interns! Free labor! Holly's all for the free interns! :o)

[HotHolly]

BTW - Roby, cool website. Is that BluDomain? Or did you write the scripts on your own? I like your work...very nice.

[RobyMD]

So with more people do you plan to be able to service more clients or get more time back or both. Also how did you come up with your time allocation, and are you married to it or are you still tweaking the process?

The website was designed by a photographer here JMOORE01 he's one of my business partners. Also I can't take credit for all the images on the site it's a combination of 4 photogs. The website is still a work in progress. We'll get it together eventually.

Oh yeah. What's your website?

[HotHolly]

My time allocation varies by season. I'm also trying to take every 5th weekend off - so far it hasnt worked. :o( But we did steal a week off and went to Disney World in early Oct. That rocked.

I was hoping the new hire and the intern could take some of our work load, but so far that hasnt worked well. They arent at the same point as me or *Mike* technically or artistically. I was hoping to take on some more of the cheaper weddings (under $1000) and get them some more time. But they still need more training. At some point, I expect to get more time and more gigs by having them around.

We are in the process of getting studio space, so I expect to have to adjust our time allocation again after that opens in the spring. I expect to still keep a concentration on schmoozing with clients and new leads as a priority time allotment. Our clients have turned into social connections and invited us to their kids birthdays and out to dinner, etc. Unexpceted, but nice.

We so need a new gallery on our website. I know SWISH pretty well and a litte bit of Flash. I've been peeking around for a template that will make updating my gallery faster that will mesh with our site. Its kind of out dated at this point. Its next on my to do list.

If you have any suggestions, let me know. About 50% of the people in the Big Country area seem to have dial up, so it needs to be a simple, fast loading gallery.

How do you guys currently have your time allocated?

[JohnT]

Let me clarify that I include the images on DVD only because the client (my church) wants to use them on their web site and in some printed material, all of which is at a zero profit margin for them. They are the only client I've done this for so far. Portrait clients absolutely not.

[HotHolly]

Originally Posted by JohnT

Portrait clients absolutely not.

wahoo!

just say NO to negatives!



Edit: Dude - what happened to my banana? Why isnt he dancing? I broke my banana!