Quandry - Please customer or get good shots?

[CCGamer]

I was curious how any of you all handle this issue -

When pre-consulting with a customer that wants an outdoors setting, I am adament about getting to the location early morning or later in the afternoon. It has happened several times now where, due to no reasons of my own, they are unable (or unwilling?) to make those times - and would rather meet at noon or early afternoon. Now, I hate to shoot a midday - the lighting and shadows are difficult, and sometimes make the most beautiful setting horrid.
They say that today is the only day they have everyone together, and it just has to be then. What do you do? You know that the locations they want won't be very nice in the glaring, eye-socket drilling, mid day sun. Nothing a fill flash can help.
[B]So do you turn them down?[/B] Because it is very likely that they won't be thrilled with the results, given the time and material they have given you to work. And a bad reference is bad indeed...
But on the other hand, you want to work with them in terms of flexibility...
Seems like a no-win situation.
Any thoughts?

[engstrom]

Have you tried explaining to the customer that the mid-day sun creates too much contrast and makes pictures look bad?

[d2creative]

You shouldn't have to limit yourself to those one or two "golden hours". Those hours may be ideal for you but obviously not for your clients.

Can you find some shade at your location? Shade and a flash off camera with an umbrella should let you get good shots at any time of the day. And if you can get an assistant you can make your own shade using a frame with translucent material.

[bondarnes]

On a few rare occasions I have told a client, "If all you want is a snapshot then why not do it yourself. However if you really want a nice portrait like the examples I have shown you, then we must create it at the ideal time. At the time of day you suggest I cannot create portrait quality lighting."

[CCGamer]

Originally Posted by d2creative

You shouldn't have to limit yourself to those one or two "golden hours". Those hours may be ideal for you but obviously not for your clients.

Can you find some shade at your location? Shade and a flash off camera with an umbrella should let you get good shots at any time of the day. And if you can get an assistant you can make your own shade using a frame with translucent material.

Yes, I've told them that the mid-day sun makes for nasty contrast, etc. - but invariably the folks think that it shouldn't matter - "you're the pro with the fancy camera, you should be able to make it perfect anyway!" (paraphrasing "slightly" of course).

Yes, I dig out the shade wherever I can find it, but it's never in the "perfect" spots it seems, or if so, it is streaky. Building a translucent frame is a good idea! Need to get to the drawing board to come up with a folding variety that can pack and commute easily.

The whole question is really addressing more of how does anyone deal with such folks - how do you "convince" them to change their schedule in stone and that if they want better product they should change? Just go with it and pull out whatever tricks and tips you have to make the best of it, or be immobile and refuse mid-day shoots?

Just curious, and moderatly frustrated because it all happened to me again today. Sigh...

Thanks all...

[DEMDeepEllumMusic]

You can make a frame that is completely breakdownable and reasonably light out of PVC pipe-it doesn't have to be super taught on the material but basically stable and have the ability to throw some weight (sandbag/waterjug-if water is on site and empty 1 gal water jug with water weighs in at 8 lbs each and 4 would get you plenty of weight-if it isn't enough weight it may be too windy to do a portrait session anyway and then just pour out the water) on the bottom of the frams-think of a box kite type design maybe with the ability to make one side higher than the other or even extending out from he top so that the cloth runs perpendicular to the ground. Now this wouldn't really help at high noon but the whole set up could probably be assembled with PVC, clamps, and cloth for under $50 for up to 8 x 4 ft.

[HotHolly]

I wouldnt turn them down - I think you need a compromise (if this hasnt already past). Usually, explaining that harsh lighting isnt flattering makes most people understand your POV, however, you can shoot at various hours and still get nice images. The midday sun is the worst when there is no shade. The sun in our spot of TX is worst b/t 11am-1pm. It starts to soften again after that. So, I'd try to push it to early afternoon. If that is a no go, try an alternate location. If that is a no go, I'd try messing around with props. You can fit a family shot under a beach umberella and it might make for a fun colorful photo. Or you can see if the location has an awning or have parts of the building in the shade. No matter what you do, shoot RAW and make sure that you dont have 1/2 your crowd in a shadow and 1/2 in full sun. That is a nightmare to fix in post processing. Hope it works out for you!

Edit:

how do you "convince" them to change

You can't...You have to try to work with them. Everyone doesnt live and breathe photographs (yea, I do - but according to most of my clients - thats weird). If they just want a picture, they wont care what time its at. And most people cant tell if you have blown or crushed things. And if you have snapshot people (basically they hired you b/c they dont own a tripod) giving them "art" will just drive them nuts, and come back and bite you on the butt. It sounds like they want a momento, so I would do the best you can given the conditions they have created.

My crazy family wanted a photo on the staircase the other day. Not real flattering. Then they insisted on printing it at WalGreens (can you hear my skin crawl?) I wanted a formal family portrait - they wanted a snapshot. They didnt care about ligthing or even if they looked good. They wanted it for a momento b/c that is where we used to take family photos as kids. And if you walked into the clients home and they push so hard to get this blah photo squashed on the stairs, ANY photog would have recommended moving elsewhere for the shot. The photog that noticed a 15 year old photo on the same stairs is the one that would have gotten the job and the good reference (eveny though the photo was less than perfect).

There is just no point in pushing it if it isnt what they want. Ya know what Im saying?

[CaptainTom]

In the world of musicians there is a saying. "The difference between an amateur and a professional is that when the amateur makes a mistake, everyone knows it, but when the professional makes a mistake they make it part of the tune."

These folks are making a mistake by being inflexible. It's your job as a professional to make their mistake "part of the tune". Do your best and they will be happy.

[wclavey]

I am a consultant by vocation and a photographer (barely) by avocation. I understand the need to balance pleasing a customer and doing the right thing. When mentoring younger constultants, I often coach them that being a good consutlant means getting the client to do the right thing and having them believe in in the end that is was his/her idea. If you can acheive that, you have been successful.

There has been some good advice above and I would add a further suggestion to it. Find a location that is harsh during the day and idyllic in the morning or evening and set up a shoot of your own arranging at each time... same clothes, same location, same direction, etc. You may even want to stack the deck by choosing clothing or poses that you know will emphasize the difference. There are very few things stronger, in my opinion, than being able to offer the customer a realistic vision of what it would look like under each circumstance and letting the customer make the "right" decision. You will manage his/her expectations appropriately.

If the customer chooses the harsh afternoon shot, then perhaps he/she wanted a snapshot after all and you are off the hook for making it better than the sample. If you can make it better than the sample, you will have exceeded the customer's expectation; otherwise, you have already set the standard for what can be expected.

[dfwlens]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
EDIT/DELETE What he said...with them as the examples .

Me giving business advise is akin to a divorced man giving marriage advice.

Oh WeLLLLL...

[Daylon]

I think it's already been discussed but my two cents:

Could you show them an example of a portrait done at say, noon, and one done during the "golden hour"...

It's kind of hard for non-photographers to grasp lighting.. I bet if you had a stark contrast of two shots (ideally same model, same outfit, just different times) you could get them to change their mind..

Alternatively, a reflector or a shady spot would be my second choice..

D.

[LadyShutterBug]

a good photographer can please her customers no matter the time of day.

i have shot outdoor weddings at high noon (including formal portraits) and gotten lovely images-- lighting is a CHALLENGE, not an impossible obstacle.

until you adopt this attitude, yes, your midday portraiture will suck. don't bother with customers you don't want to please.

pick a location where you CAN find shade. if they want the beach at high noon, use fill flash. that's all you can do... i promise you-- I PROMISE YOU-- it is way more important to this family that they have everyone together for a nice portrait than it is that they have the portrait taken in the hours where beautiful light is available.

i shot yesterday afternoon in an ugly-as-sin park. bright blue water tower in one direction, someone's ugly fence and a roof in the other direction. roads with tacky christmas decor in the other direction. a big red yellow and blue play structure in the other direction... know what? i cropped to their faces. i found the most neutral background possible and went for a really shallow depth of field... you have to work under the circumstances you're given. some of the family members were in town and leaving to go back to chicago in the evening, and we had to work around infant and toddler naptimes-- it was shoot now or don't shoot at all.

you have to work with their schedule-- THEY are paying you for a service. you can preach up and down about how beautiful the light is at 4:45, but if their family will be there and all together at noon, you are beating a dead horse.

[JohnT]

Accommodate the client. Shoot your best. Make the most of it. This is what I've learned over the last month, and my clients have been very happy--happier than I was with the final product, but that's OK.

[CCGamer]

Thank you all - there is some excellent advice here!
One thing I've learned here now is that I need to work a little more in "making the most of what I've got". I shot two different families in the same location over two different days - the first one was the dreaded noon-time, and the second family (whom I have shot before) in the mid to late afternoon. I admit, I was more comfortable and probably more into the evening shoot than the first - which probably did quite a bit to hinder any creativity and "make-do/can-do" attitude that would have helped. As it turned out, the evening shoot turned out absolutely wonderful, and I'm dissapointed in the mid-day pictures.
So, the bottom line is - definately more my fault that the families...
I've got more work to do! Thanks again for all the input!

[Silvernic]

Originally Posted by CaptainTom

In the world of musicians there is a saying. "The difference between an amateur and a professional is that when the amateur makes a mistake, everyone knows it, but when the professional makes a mistake they make it part of the tune."

These folks are making a mistake by being inflexible. It's your job as a professional to make their mistake "part of the tune". Do your best and they will be happy.

Nicely said Tom, I'm going to have to remember that one.