Need QUICK advise!!!

[Sonny]

A flag football league contacted about shooting their team & portrait photos. The president is asking for each kid to receive (1) 5x7 team photo & (1) 3.5x5 portrait photo both printed on (1) 8x10 sheet. There will be 26 teams with 7-10 kids on each team. The president is willing to pay the entire bill upfront asking for their cost to be $4.50 for each 8x10. I usually charge $12.00 for one 8x10.

On a side note. In November of last year I shot a tackle tournament for the same league and president. The league was very happy and so were we. The following week the president asked if I would be interested in shooting their flag football in March. We had a very brief discussion about expectations, my cost, and her asking price. She asked if it were possible to offer them the same package at $6.00. I did not give a yes or no answer. Instead I said I needed to discuss it with my partner (wife) and we would get back to her. She said I have until February to respond with my answer. We tried to get back with her at the end of February (due to our baby being born). No luck!. We left several messages. We finally got her to answer the phone, but she was busy and asked if she could call us back to discuss our offer before she had a board meeting with the flag football league. Unfortunately we did not hear back from her until tonight...two weeks after the season began.


The 26 teams will be playing at three separate school locations. If I hire 1 more photographer and a helper to shoot at one of the other field locations we should be able to cover all 26 teams within two or three consecutive Saturdays. They are scheduled to play their games at 10am, 11am, 12pm, 1pm, and 2pm at all three fields. I figure 1 hour before 10am to setup, shoot each team before their game (ask the late games to arrive by 11am), and take 1 hour to shutdown and load up the truck. We're looking at 5hrs for two Saturdays for each photographer and the helper.

The president says they have another photographer who is willing take the job at 4.50/sheet if I choose not to accept. Even if I do not choose to shoot the team & portraits, they have welcomed me to setup my tent and table and offer my action photography services to the parents.

I still have to pay the other photographer and two helpers. What is fair market value for another photographer? Is this worth my time? What counter offer should I give her? Maybe you can give me an alternative option I am over looking? I hope somebody can give me some help. We need to give her our response tomorrow evening.

Thanks,
-Sonny

[CaptainTom]

126 kids times 4.50 equals $567.
I don't see how you can pay shooters, pay for materials, pay yourself with this income.
An extra shooter would get at least $100 each five hour day. minmum $200
two helpers at $50/day. another $200
That leaves $167. How much to print an 8X10 ?
Even at $1.50 each, that leaves a shortage of $22.

And, you haven't paid yourself yet...


Are there extra sales available ? At what price ? They're gonna want everything at $4.50/sheet.

It sounds like the other photographer is not aware of what is involved, or perhaps doesn't really exist.

Figure your costs including paying yourself, and then double that figure/ divide by the number of 8X10's and that is what you charge. Basic business practice to cover the uncalculated costs. i.e. cameras, mileage, car, insurance, etc.

[xjben]

I think extra sales would be the key....either of the portraits, or finding clients for action photos later on (build client base), if you need additional exposure there. I count 221 kids (8.5 average per team, so that's at least a little better at $1000 in sales. So, you might be able to take that and pull out $400 for helpers and another 200 in materials (prints, etc.), and maybe net out $400 for your time and effort. You'd have to estimate if the time shooting and post processing the photos is worth it for that much (plus whatever other upside or benefits exist).

[DeLeon]

Wow...4.50 a sheet? that is very cheap. I am no where near your level of photography, and I charge 10.00 for something like that.

[kachina]

I'm no expert but that seems pretty low to me. Not sure what the demographics of the group are but it seems like it would be hard to balance things out with the extra action sales for only 126 kids - esp. if they are expecting $4.50 8X10s like Tom mentioned.

[CobyPhoto]

Sonny,

Extra sales are one thing, but what they are asking is akin to "give us the product," not paying a fair price for it.

I don't think it is a fair return on your time invested. End of story. They have already offered you the option of setting up and doing the action work...just do that. Pass on the T & I and let the other guy deal with it. Besides, the other photographer can't be offering much quality if he is only charging $4.50/8x10.

Your work speaks for itself Sonny. And as far as additional sales go...they see your work sold at 4.50 an 8x10" they are going to want to pay that for your action stuff and additional portraits too. Once you start negotiating based on price alone, they expect that everytime and want you to do your top level of work for nothing. You have to draw a line somewhere...not saying that is what you need to do here, don't have enough details. But man, that is awfully cheap, $4.50/8x10! And it is just like Tom pointed out...you haven't paid yourself a dime!

CJ

[DEMDeepEllumMusic]

Let her go with the other guy but do take advantage of doing the action shots at the games and just get out there for each group of games so you can see who took the job at that rate.

As calculated above there is no way you can even break even on the front end and hoping to cover your costs on the back end is not good sense on this type of event since you can just do the back end work yourself anyway. So why sink all that time and cost into something that won't make you any money and won't give you anything really extra and who is to say if you won the deal that the other guy couldn't set up doing the action only work?


OK lets look at the numbers:
26 teams 7 to 10 kids each gives you a range of 182 t0 260 kids so a midrange would be 220. So 220 $ 4.50= $990

Your cost for 220 sheets would probably be close to $3 a sheet since each sheet is a custom print since the team photo and portrait would be on a sheet. Actually I would see if I could do two sheets the 5x7 and then a seperate portrait since then you could get anywhere from 7-10 of of each 5x7 done in batches and then work each portrait seperatly and this may bring your cost down a few cents per person but anyway lets just say $660 to keep the math easy so that leaves you"
$330 to cover paying for a second shooter, your time, gasoline for going between the various locations and more than 2 days of hard work since you will need to put each person associated with each team and then get the packets back to them.

Not sure if you have your own printing set up but I would look at your cost of each print to meet this job.

Another way to approach this is to look at your costs.

Say a 2 day shoot like this with follow up has a cost of $500 (counts second shooter and helpers) and prints using your own printer comes out to $600 and you know that you will have 220 sets of prints so your lowest price would be $5 a set with you at a bare minimum cost coverage level. ALso don't forget Taxes!

(Btw don't know where Tom came up with 126)

So I would pass on the deal.

[Sonny]

Thank y'all very much for the respones. I had a few hours to sleep on it and I decided to pass on the Team & Portrait shoot. I took Tom's advice and back calculated my costs. In order for me to come out ahead...I would have to charge her $10.33 per 8x10.

I would not be doing the industry and my fellow photos justice if I "whored" myself out just to make a cheap buck. Of course we'll make her a counter offer. If she declines then we will only shoot the action stuff.

Thanks again fellas I really appreciate your input.


-Sonny