Do you make money doing this? Please read this.

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by Paraquat

Gordon - I see where the divergence is between the two issues here. Those who want to make some profit for something they enjoy (professional) and those who do it for fun and charge very little (hobbyist).

Though the IRS for example treat hobbyists and for profit businesses differently as well.

Yes there are implications if you sell images at all, in terms of state sales taxes and so on, but there is a higher burden on the for profit business in a whole lot of areas, more significant than the financial ones (e.g., having to actually turn up, meeting customer demands etc)

Any professional should be able to easily outperform a part-timer in terms of the overall quality of service - range of services offered, flexibility, after sales, customer care, professionalism (in time keeping, communications, etc) because those are the aspects of the job that aren't fun.

Where it is tough and impossible to compete on is price. I just think the notion that everyone just needs to be educated and raise their prices is misguided. It ignores the fact that most of the people shooting really don't care about the profit (not the money, but the profit) It isn't their source of income.

[boxofrocks]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Okay - then I misunderstood your initial post. I thought you were saying that people who were willing to do it cheaply were bad business people and hurting the industry & thus had to change what they do.......Where it is tough and impossible to compete on is price. I just think the notion that everyone just needs to be educated and raise their prices is misguided. It ignores the fact that most of the people shooting really don't care about the profit (not the money, but the profit) It isn't their source of income.

No, and thanks for clarifying. I thought the title of the post covered that, but I guess some will still misunderstand.

Maybe I should change the title to "If you don't want to make money with photography, don't read this post"

PS--Gordon, I like your blog.

[zepp]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Okay - then I misunderstood your initial post. I thought you were saying that people who were willing to do it cheaply were bad business people and hurting the industry & thus had to change what they do.

I never took it that way... I understood the original posters intention to give knowledge to those who value their talent and time AND want to make money at it.

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by boxofrocks

PS--Gordon, I like your blog.

Thank you. Now if I could only get people to pay to read it ;)

[STP Images]

.

[boxofrocks]

Nice race car!

[Steelsun]

The same basic thing can be said in almost any service industry, and we have to fight it all the time.

Case in point, my main profession (private investigator).
As a corporate provate investigator (we cater to businesses and the corporate world, not to divorce cases), I consider myself a professional, and we price ourselves appropriatly.
But there are a lot of former LEO retirees or moonlighters that offer the same services (although not the same quality) for 1/3rd of our price/rate. We've actually increased our rates several times, and we are getting more business.
And the upshot is that we lost (willingly) alot of the 'problem' clients: the whiners, lowballers, penny pinchers, etc, that took up an inordinate amount of our time for the money they brought in.

Look up the 80/20 rule on clients and pricing. It's worth following.

[boxofrocks]

Oh--BTW Paraquat, I dare you to post the rest of that GGGR quote in your sig.

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by Paraquat

By the way, I drove race cars 32 weekends a year as a "hobby" and I earned as much as $25,000 per year in weekly purse earnings. This did NOT change my status as hobbyist, but I would have LOVED to have earned more in that hobby. Racing is the only thing I've found that will suck money at a rate higher than "L" lenses and Mark III bodies.

I think you'll find sailing or flying would tend to suck more ;)

[DoctorWu]

Originally Posted by Paraquat

then why not charge an industry standard dollar amount in the first place?.

I can only speak for myself, but, I'm not good enough to charge the industry standard, I lack the experience, the portfolio, and the talent. And believe me, I let the people I take pictures for know the following - I'm starting out cheap because I need to build my portfolio and gain experience while I still maintain my "day job":

-What they get from me: Better pictures than they can take themselves

-What they will not get from me: the experience and professional services of a professional photographer - there are a lot of professional photographers around who are much more talented than I am and their services are well worth paying for.

I make both of these points very clear right up front.

[picasso]

Gordon,

I understand what you are trying to say but to me part of it does not make sense. What person in their right mind would say "I make more money than I need" but "I am going to charge for pictures that I take for a hobby"? In a previous post up above you said these people don't want to take on the tax implicaitons of charging etc.... In my mind if its a hobby. You don't charge and if you charge you need to make a decent profit at it or whats the point because like you said earlier there are to many issues to deal with when you start handling money.

Paul

Originally Posted by Gordon

They could reasonably try to cover their out of pocket expenses (e.g., charging cost price for prints and so on) The distinction is they don't 'value' their time or feel the need to be paid for doing what is to them a hobby. They also probably don't feel the need to earn enough to pay for travel expenses and other incidentals. It isn't a business - they are happy to run at a loss - but it doesn't mean it has to be given away completely.

Or the fact that if they don't charge - they don't get to participate.

I know several shooters in that situation. They comfortably make more money than they need from their job and shoot for fun. But they still charge and don't want to be full time shooters (because of the required huge pay cut)

[thrumyeyes]

Originally Posted by DoctorWu

I can only speak for myself, but, I'm not good enough to charge the industry standard, I lack the experience, the portfolio, and the talent. And believe me, I let the people I take pictures for know the following - I'm starting out cheap because I need to build my portfolio and gain experience while I still maintain my "day job":

-What they get from me: Better pictures than they can take themselves

-What they will not get from me: the experience and professional services of a professional photographer - there are a lot of professional photographers around who are much more talented than I am and their services are well worth paying for.

I make both of these points very clear right up front.

You saved me some typing ;)

I have not taken any jobs yet, but I do sell micro-stock (stop boo-ing!). I have thought about trying to take on a couple of side jobs, but with no experience and no portfolio I would have to sell on price. Any suggestions for a guy like me? (Other than stick with your day job...)

[picasso]

Gordon,

No offense to you at all but, I can think of very few people that aren't motivated by money.

1. The rich are motivated and thats how they got that way.
2. The poor and average person's are trying to make ends meet any way they can.

Which brings me back to the origional post in which if you are charging, you need the money or you would not be charging. Why not charge a fair price and be fair to those that are trying to make a living at it? After all, if you are trying to compete then you should be able to compete on a level playing ground otherwise maybe you shouldn't be charging for your work. If you don't charge enjoy the hobby but, don't treat it like a business otherwise be ready to compete.

Paul

Originally Posted by Gordon

I answered this already. But I'll try again. Because it takes more of the less fun work to put more money in the pocket. Business admin. Accounting. Taxes. Expectations. Demands. Deadlines.

If you don't care about the money, you can ignore most of those things and just shoot for fun, exposure, images being used, publication. If you aren't motivated by the money, why would you care about puting it in your pocket ?

[picasso]

Originally Posted by thrumyeyes

You saved me some typing ;)

I have not taken any jobs yet, but I do sell micro-stock (stop boo-ing!). I have thought about trying to take on a couple of side jobs, but with no experience and no portfolio I would have to sell on price. Any suggestions for a guy like me? (Other than stick with your day job...)

Do what I am doing. Build up a portfolio you would want to show someone then charge a fair price. Now, I am not talking about using friends, cousins, coworkers etc... Just don't put ads in the paper or craigslist like "Free Wedding Pics" or "Portraits for $1.00" I just paid a model $60 last week to gets some pics for a portfolio. I am taking a wedding class this weekend and hope to get some pics from it that will go in a portfolio. There are classes being given from time to time that allow you to get portfolio pics. You can even stop people on the street and hand them a card and explain you are trying to build a portfolio for "Whatever" and thought they might fit in. Ask if they would be interested in "Time for Prints" Most young women love to be photographed and look pretty so they are open to it. (Just make sure you tell them they can bring an escort). IF you do good work you don't need a huge amount of pictures. Just good ones to show. Remember the people you are shoing them to don't know you haven't been in the business for years. Come across professional in your presentation and charge a professional rate and if your portfolio is good you will get it.

Paul

[ShaneKislack]

Look, this is turning into a pros vs joes thread and that simply isn't the point. The point, while it does help the pros by leveling the playing field, also helps the joes. If a joe and charge $1000 and get it...why in the world would they charge $100? It will also help them when they become pros. Once the cheap guy...always the cheap guy.

All this "I'm not good enough" crap is a cop out. It's fear. Who told you that you aren't good enough yet? Are you afraid you won't get jobs if you charge $1000? That's ok, you weren't in it for the money, right?