Selling Digital Negs ?s

[HotHolly]

So far, I have gotten a handful of replies and they all purchased their negs. Thanks for the suggestions. Not sure if we will do it again - I'll have to see how this goes. If it goes well, its a rockin' way to clear out your archives!

[CobyPhoto]

I normally do not sell my images outright, until a period of at least 2 years following the session, wedding etc. THEN, if I decide I am going to sell full-rights to my work, it will be for a substantial sum in the range of 450.00 - 1000.00 depending on the session.

The reasoning behind not selling images is not motivated by lost profits, though that is a factor. My most important reason for NOT selling an image is that 95% of the clients that seek a Professional Studio are not "Photoshop" and ICC, etc. literate and many times the images they have printed from your work will flat out SUCK.

WHO gets the blame for that? The photographer. AND if you do go through and work on ALL the images and get them to some sort of print ready format...you DESERVE to get paid a substantial sum for your work.

Furthermore, why do people come to a professional photographer in the first place? Because they are not literate, invested in expensive equipment and software, nor are they familiar with how to do the photography quickly, effectively and then produce stunning prints or albums. If they were, they wouldn't be in your business. Full service and convienence.

In the end, it depends if you are willing to risk your reputation as a photographer on the 17year old operating the Fuji Frontier at Sam's club getting just about minimum wage and his/her interpretation of what your work should look like or what YOU know it should look like.

If this is your primary source of income and you have nothing to fall back on, you should not be willing to risk your reputation at any cost. Gaining a little more revenue vs. losing multiple potential customers is a no brainer. And as a professional you should be willing to give your clients full-service, not just the images on a CD. They chose your work, most likely because they saw examples of it in print or on the web and there is but ONE person can do what you do...they almost assuredly cannot reproduce your work 100%.

Granted, my outlook on this will not hold true for everyone. But I can guarentee you this, check with just about ever established professional in your area that has a studio, does this as their sole source of income and you will find that almost NONE sell their images outright. Reputation in this business is everything. Do not risk it at the hands of someone you can't control.

CJ

[HotHolly]

Thanks for the thoughts Coby. We are not selling all rights - reprint rights only. Even so, your concerns are why we have not sold reprint rights at all or released the files to clients. I'm a bit of a control freak and didnt want them to have the files if they could be altered - and the 1 hour printers are horrible.

However, I have had a ton of people that want the negs to sit in a drawer for safe keeping. They also want the name of the printer/ lab that they can use. I'm hoping this wont come back and bite me in the butt. I'll find out soon enough. Thanks for voicing different opinions here (without killing each other). ;o)

[NathanJK]

I'm offering it because imo its quickly becoming the standard. I've looked at virtually every photographer in my area and as far as weddings go I'd say 75% offer the digital negatives in some form or fashion. I might not like the idea of them mucking up the printing, but I like the idea of them not choosing me even less.

[Solstice_Photography]

Originally Posted by NathanJK

I'm offering it because imo its quickly becoming the standard. I've looked at virtually every photographer in my area and as far as weddings go I'd say 75% offer the digital negatives in some form or fashion. I might not like the idea of them mucking up the printing, but I like the idea of them not choosing me even less.

And unfortunately that has become the trend. Where people don't buy prints anymore, because they figure it looks good online, it will come out good on paper straight from the CD. So, why should they bother paying for prints when so many photogs offer negs on CD?!

It is kinda sad, since I am just starting out in this business. But, luckily for me I stick to my guns since this is just a side business for me and I refuse to give away everything on disk. The only images they receive are the prints they have already purchased along with a contract stating that they have limited copyrights.

[wjmphoto]

Holly,
Here's my take on it.

The processed images are the only thing of value that come from your work. I am assuming here that you are not really talking about giving away the unprocessed RAW files, but the images that met the final cut and that you spent time on post processing. That represents a lot of work and giving it away for $99 or some other low number is a bit on the whacky side.

You need to price them at a level that reflects the value of the work put into the files themselves. We are not talking about freebie images that Uncle Bob created, but professional work that you created. As such the amount that you sell them for should be equivalent to the value that you place on your work. If you think your work is worth $99 for the whole deal, you probably shouldn't be in the business in the first place. I already know that you don't think that, so you should offer the images for what they are worth. The very lowest end, IMHO, for quality negatives, would be a grand and the reality is a good deal more than that.

What you have to ask yourself is do you want to sell them to a customer that wants them for $100 as an afterthought that they will toss aside and not care about or do you want them to go to a client who values the work and is willing to pay for it. Those clients will be more likely to get them printed at the shops that you recommend instead of going to the local Wally World and getting garbage prints that make your work look like crap. (Remember that those prints will still be floating out there representing your work and bringing down your reputation.) Personally, I'd rather throw the negatives in the trash than sell them for chump change and see them printed at Wally World without the least bit of quality control and horrible color rendition. I respect myself and the work that I put into what I produce too much to give it away for free.

[HotHolly]

Thanks for the opinions. These clients arent really the Wally World crowd, but you never know. Most of them wanted the files to sit in a vault. And no, Im not talking RAW. Im talking the finished jpgs.

One of these people has old film negs in her safe that are rotting away, never printed. She just wanted them to have them. Since its 6-12 months later for these people, and they already have paper prints of all sizes, I guess I am not expecting them to even print much. One of them wants me to order another photo with her negs. I like that kind of client! lol.

[NathanJK]

All this talk about what happens when they print them at wally world makes me wonder...if you are giving the client QUALITY digital negs (obviously just JPG's, no RAW files) then they should come out with relatively decent images anyways. However, why not offer a hefty discount if they bring the negs back to you to print. IE: inform them that you don't keep the clients negatives after 1 year or so, but if they bring the dvd back to you you will be happy to make the prints for them at a good sized discount. I'm thinking something like 3 bucks for a 4x6, 5 bucks for a 5x7, 8 bucks for an 8x10 etc. You'd still make a decent profit and have to do nothing other than resize the image, sharpen it appropriately and print with the lab of your choice. We're talking maybe 10 minutes of work for you per picture tops. That way you encourage them to use you for reprints and you make money off of that image at least twice (with the dvd sale, and again with the reprint).

One thing that needs to be stressed with brides and clients in general when they purchase these dvd's is that they are NOT buying the copyright to the images and they are NOT purchasing the full rights to the images. They are purchasing limited rights to reprint the images for personal use ONLY. They may NOT sell the images to The Knot to use for advertising, they may NOT sell the images to a MUA to use for marketing etc. etc. Its simply so that they can make reprints for themselves whenever they want to. A contract of some form should be given to them, if nothing else a simple description of the rights they are purchasing with a place for both parties to sign, and both parties get to keep a copy. This will also help you a lot if you find them for some strange reason misusing their rights to the images. My wife recently told me about a description on The Knot about this very topic and you'd be amazed how many brides were fully convinced they could do anything they wanted with the images. They routinely said they "owned the rights" to the images and such. This is our fault as photographers for not educating our customers and really the customers shouldn't balk at limited rights once they understand what it all means.

[Outlaw]

As far as the underlying issue, I agree with Nathan that customer education is the only ace we have. If a client is educated in the value of your work and the value of the products they ask for (prints, negatives, etc.), they will pay accordingly. There are cost-free steps you can take to ensure that, if you do release images to clients, they will make smart decisions about how to handle those images. Each of those steps is one down the road of customer knowledge, whether it's an informational pamphlet, contract, or just a sit-down conversation.

Ignorance is the only reason a client would print $1,000 photos for $0.19 apiece at Wal-Mart; even if they do it knowing that the quality will suffer, that is their choice, but only spite would drive them to blame you as the photographer and/or disparage your name by association. When it comes to this, some photogs may take stronger measures to ensure this doesn't or cannot happen.

I personally would opine that customer education is the most powerful force in stopping the downward trend which has affected the value of professional photography in the public's mind. Since consumer-priced dSLRs are fairly new to the market, there's still the ignorance/excitement factor that these powerful tools will make lay people great photographers - or even 'good enough.' I think this devaluation of pro-level work will see a natural uptrend as dSLRs become more common in everyday households, and people realize that even with these great tools, they cannot produce work on the same level as daily-practiced and years-seasoned professionals. We can help this trend through educating our customers.

All of that said, and to answer your original question, we have never sold negatives for any reason; believe it or not, nobody has ever asked. It is not uncommon for me to get large orders on photo shoots I did years ago. Case in point, a wedding client who I photographed in 2004 came to me earlier this year and bought a mounted 20x30 from her ceremony at my current, higher prices, without batting an eye.

Now if I were moving to a system where I do not want to keep archives of my clients' work, I would definitely sell the negatives to my clients. Only seems right to give them that option. If the images are already processed, which in my case they would be, I think $1 per image creates a nice sliding scale that should parallel the original charges for the shoot. A one-year anniversary, especially for weddings, sounds like a great marketing opportunity for this and a great gift idea for a hubby to give his wife, or couple to give themselves.

[LadyShutterBug]

a) it is written into my contract that i retain full copyright, and that copies of the files are released to them with the understanding that they are the be used for PERSONAL reprinting only. they are not to edit or digitally manipulate the image other than cropping. i often explain to my clients that if they wrote a book, they might be happy to distribute that book digitally-- but they would certainly never want someone else taking credit as an author or re-writing portions of the book... same with photography.

b) they are under no circumstance allowed to sell or transfer the files to anyone else. i always explain to them that if their MUA, venue, florist, etc. wants a pic of them, to please let me know and i am happy to handle that for them. i spin it such that i want the person to have the BEST POSSIBLE representation of my work, and if they are going to use it on a website, i want to speak directly with that vendor and let them know that i need a photo credit. i don't want the bride to have to be stuck in the middle of any vendor-to-vendor transactions. it's less work for HER.

c) i tell them that while i am giving them a beautiful, edited file, that i HIGHLY recommend they use freestanding photo labs (not walmart, CVS, walgreens) who have employees who are truly happy to be in the photo industry, and not just someone who's floating to the lab from the cosmetics counter. i do not guarantee color, quality, clarity, etc. unless prints are ordered directly through me. i encourage them that when looking to print anything larger than 8x10, that they order through me so i can assure that the outcome is the best possible and that the print is mounted correctly.


most of my brides are interested in making their own small prints at their leisure. getting a 4x6 or 5x7 framed for dad on father's day. making their own album or scrapbook.

i only give them the fully edited files, so there should never be a reason for their print to turn out truly crappy even if they do hit walgreens.

i archive the files in addition to providing them to my clients.

[bodynmotion]

Nice touch Kasey. Do you mind if I borrow some of your post for my business plan??? I don't want the content exact, just the theory behind it.

[HotHolly]

Originally Posted by NathanJK

All this talk about what happens when they print them at wally world makes me wonder...if you are giving the client QUALITY digital negs (obviously just JPG's, no RAW files) then they should come out with relatively decent images anyways.

That's what you'd think - but no. A printer is a printer is a printer, right? Nope - they are not the same. Its like the difference b/t trying to print photos off your PC on a crappy printer at home or sending them to WalMart. You can see a difference, right? The difference b/t a 1 hour place and a photo lab is just as different. Plus many of the 1 hour labs will automatically color correct files - with our oddball lighting, it reeks havoc on our images and you end up with a big nasty mess. So, short version - no, they don't print the same.

Im also shocked to see so many people saying they don't usually sell the negs. I thought I was the only one thinking along those lines in here.

[boxofrocks]

My reluctance to sell CDs has been due to the printer variation described above. I don't want someone seeing a photo I shot with the colors out of wack and then asking "Who shot your wedding?".

[CobyPhoto]

Originally Posted by HotHolly

Im also shocked to see so many people saying they don't usually sell the negs. I thought I was the only one thinking along those lines in here.

Holly,

As I mentioned, not sellling negatives has been the standard for as long as I can remember. Even in this digital age, there are issues surrounding color and prints that require an educated, "professional" to handle. Granted, this industry is changing, and there may actually come a time when "digital prints" are the end product of a session, however, I can't see allowing someone else to print my work, and run the risk of problems and unhappy customers that could potentially damage my business.

On a side note thou:
I just offered up 10 years worth of negatives (past clients) for sale to individual clients at really reasonable prices, just so they could have them if they wanted them. The cost per negative was to coover the scanning and color correction and then placing them on a CD ROM in a Print and Web version.

I granted them full print rights. On the approximately 400 weddings included in these negatives, I e-mailed or called each bride/groom and informed them that the negative were being destroyed. I had only 8 people purchase negatives or partial negatives from those weddings. One of the brides that did purchase the negatives, took them (CD ROM) to Sam's club and had prints done...she was back a week later pissed off, cause the prints sucked and she didn't like them. [Color was not equal to what she had originally from the wedding.] In the end, I printed them for her and she was happy and educated about the variations in printers etc. that keep me from doing this on a regular basis now.

It has been my experience, that after a year or so, and especially if they have an album, there is little or no interest in the photos.

Further, you would be surprised how many were divorced and now re-married! They had NO interest in the negatives at all..."burn 'em. I ain't buying them!"