Concert Photography - Options

[laawaaris]

I am going to be meeting a non-profit that is having a benefit concert. Basically I will be interviewing for the contract of their event photographer.

What concerns me is what I should offer them when I am talking with them. Right now, I don't understand what needs a person would have when they want to have their concert photographed.

Should I simply offer them all the pictures on a CD? Should I offer prints? Should I offer to host the pictures on my website? Should I create some sort of a book - like a BLURB book - that tells the story of the concert (with words and pictures)? What else could they practically use?

Ideally I would like to have more than one "package" for them to choose from. I have only done weddings and some portraits - so I don't really have that much business knowledge of what something like this should entail.

[bradh]

I have no professional idea but hopefully someone can help.

However I will offer this advice: Whatever you offer make sure you aren't offering *too* much as is the case with me sometimes. I become excited with what I am planning on doing and throw a bunch of stuff on the table, but then become bogged down with the work because maybe I pulled it off a couple of times, but this certain time it's starting to get tricky.

Obvious example: Things like making a CD are super easy and simple. No real problem offering it. But doing a lot of extra creative stuff may not totally be worthwhile.

From your standpoint it would certainly help to know what they do with all this besides, say, publish the photos on a website or some pamphlet... or maybe that is all they do. Ideally it would be beneficial maybe to probe a couple of questions to some director and just get a sense of what they want out of this so you will know what to offer.

I don't know what kind of volume from the contract you would be doing, like a concert every month or what, but if there were a lot of events and you want to put some sort of physical print thing together at some point, offer something like 'Concerts in August' or 'Fall' or whatever.


That's my early morning rant.

[HotHolly]

Concerts usually want photography for documentation, advertising, and member newsletters. My background is in orchestra and symphony - so it may differ if you are talking with a band. Concert made me think it wasnt. Not sure if it matters. Those are the main 3 things, which affect what you sell. You may be selling rights rather than photos.

[zepp]

Ask the non profit group what they are wanting. It seems to me by the description of your original post that the organization is wanting an event photographer to capture images of the event and the people attending, important sponsors, etc. Normal usage for this type stuff is internal organization use, self promotion, and hand out photos for press releases. I would think the actual concert photo part would play a very small role in this job.

Talk with your client and then price it accordingly as event photography, licensing the images as such.

[laawaaris]

ok that sounds good ... i think the best may be to ask them what they want ...

if i mention to them that i will be licensing the images to them as event photography ... does that mean i lose the rights to use the images for my own purposes? or can i spell it out so i am licensing them the images for their promotional use, but i will still retain the rights as well ... so its sort of a dual-ownership?

[zepp]

Originally Posted by laawaaris

ok that sounds good ... i think the best may be to ask them what they want ...

if i mention to them that i will be licensing the images to them as event photography ... does that mean i lose the rights to use the images for my own purposes? or can i spell it out so i am licensing them the images for their promotional use, but i will still retain the rights as well ... so its sort of a dual-ownership?

Spell out the rights you are licensing in the license agreement and charge them accordingly for those rights. IE, one time use, perpetual use, one year, two year, exclusive, non exclusive, U S only, world, etc. The images are under your copyright unless you sign a "Work-for-Hire" agreement or transfer the copyright. State your terms in the contract and have them agree to those terms and you agree to their terms.

[laawaaris]

i met with the person in charge of the concert today and he really liked my work, but now i have to figure out how to price it

they will need me for 3 hours, starting with snapping my first photo at the closing remarks AFTER the concert is over, taking photos backstage immediately after that, and then taking candids during the VIP reception until it is completed ... no photos taken during the concert and no photos of audience members or anything else

they want quote an hourly rate - and i told them that I will release the rights for them to use in Press Releases, Internally on their Website, Marketing, etc

i know i will need to bring an assistant with me .... what hourly rate should i charge?

also, they want to sell the candid photos that I take during the VIP reception to the guests online ... they are expecting a kickback on a portion of the sale ... what percentage should i kick back to them?

and most importantly - what price should i charge for the photos (5x7, 8x10, 11x14) etc?

(thanks in advance!)

[laawaaris]

myself and my client are continuing our talks ... he is really interested in using me and i quoted him an hourly rate for photography which he was fine with

now i have to come up with a price for prints that i will sell online through PhotoReflect.com (or something similar)

what price would you guys recommend charging? with PhotoReflect I can use one of the labs on their Labtricity network and they can drop ship the order to the customer

the only thing I have found is that drop shipping is expensive - so far the few that I have talked to charge $10 per drop ship (those are the ones that use FedEx) ... I am a little uncertain if I should just use USPS and be comfortable with that

Anyhow, because of this high drop ship cost, I am thinking of restricting the customer so that the minimum order price is $25 or $30 ...

my client is a non-profit so i am kicking some of the profit back to them ... so to cover the cost of the high drop ship and to make sure both the non-profit and myself make some money, i am having a minimum order price

please let me know what you guys think and thanks

[laawaaris]

nobody has any thoughts? I guess i will ask one last time ...

i am using PhotoReflect which has a 18% processing fee and then shipping/handling and printing which amount to a few dollars

I will kick back about 40% to the non-profit and keep 60% myself. I'll take pictures of people at a dinner party, basically stop them before they check in and snap their photos as a group.

Because the proceeds are going to a non-profit and because there will likely not be numerous sales from the same photo I am thinking of the following prices:

4x6 - $7, 5x7 - $17, 8x10 - $27 ... and shipping cost is a flat $3 for any order

is this price too high? i dont know how to trade it off ... some proceeds are going to a non-profit so the price is naturally higher, but i don't want someone who likes the photo to balk at the cost of the photo itself

what do you guys think?

[taygull]

I think those prices are above average.......but only you know what they will pay.

[laawaaris]

Thanks Chris.

This ridiculous negotiation process never ceases. The non-profit called me yesterday and asked to change the whole arrangement. I really need some help, so I'm going to post the details with numbers and all.

I went in at $200 per hour for the concert. I was also going to post the photos online for sale and do a 60/40 split of the profits in my favor. The non-profit agreed to both of these points.

Now the non-profit says they want me to host and manage the sales of ALL of their events - including the events they had in the past (which they never sold any photos for). They said that I will be getting lots of exposure from the over 4,000 people that have attended the non-profit events in the past and that I will be making profit on photos that I did not even take.

Because of this the Non-Profit wants me to drop my hourly rate for the concert entirely - so that the only way I will make money will be from the sales of the photos online.

This is a really difficult situation, because I was really looking forward to the guaranteed hourly rate. However, I think there is a potential for sales of the photos and for increased exposure like they mentioned.

Because of this, I am thinking of pushing back a little. I will drop my hourly rate to $50 per hour - to cover my assistant fees and to pocket a little myself. I will also ask to be the official event photographer for the Non-Profit for the next 2 events (because I know they have 2 more big events coming up).

Then I will change the hosting provider from PhotoReflect to IFP3.com. IFP3.com only charges about $20-$30 per month in fees to host the photos and there will be no transaction fees except 3% for PayPal. I will push this monthly charge onto the Non-Profit organization as well.

Because of the lower fees for ordering, I will lower the print prices to:

5x7 - $13, 8x10 - $20, 8x12 - $27 and I may offer a frame for the 8x10 and include and 11x14 size or make a package.

What do you guys think? Is the request of the Non-Profit a little ridiculous? Am I asking too much in my kickback of the negotiations? I know many of you have done this before so I would appreciate the help!

[AndrewCCM]

Beginning to wonder if you'll actually make anything on this deal..

Personally, I never rely on "after the shoot" sales. Especially, if you are giving them rights to the images. I would have at least a minimum that you are guaranteed and have it spelled out in the contract.

But.. it all comes down to what you're time is worth to you. If you just want the job and get the marketing experience, with no real concerns about profit..I bet you can work something out. However, as a professional photographer, I am not a real fan of giving large organization (non-profit or not) something for free, or worse...costing me money....which I see a lot of people not factoring in (soft costs).

BTW: Non-profit does not mean they do not make any money. Perhaps the organization shows no profit, but employees get paid typically. You would be a contractor/employee.

Good luck!

[Wendyp]

I have done work for a non profit and overall the sells are not stellar. In fact, I have only sold 4-5 prints that were taken during the after-show parties. (My after event sells are of the show itself, and those sells aren't great).

My advice to you is to lock in an hourly rate (75-100), skip the paid assistant, and lower the print prices (who is going to pay $20 for a picture of them standing around eating cheese?) with the possible exception of the group photo.

As far as a donation to the group, I would be inclined to explain to them that the modest anticipated sells will help to compensate you for the reduction in fees. But, you may not be able to do that since you've already agreed to the split.

[laawaaris]

well i guess i will clarify even more ... the money shots i will try to sell are not ones of people eating cheese (although i suppose those might be interesting shots if i fade to BW and leave the cheese in color, but that is neither here nor there)

but rather the pictures i will be selling are those of important people ... i suppose i could liken it to saying you and your wife had a photo taken with Vice President Dick Cheney at a formal dinner party

assuming you had a photo taken with a celebrity or some sort of political leader that you admire, would you pay more for that photo? i am thinking i might jack the price up a bit because of the value created by a picture with a well respected celebrity

[Wendyp]

Originally Posted by laawaaris

assuming you had a photo taken with a celebrity or some sort of political leader that you admire, would you pay more for that photo? i am thinking i might jack the price up a bit because of the value created by a picture with a well respected celebrity

It's hard to answer that question without knowing the stature of the celebrity. One of the shows I photographed actually had a movie star (very long list of film credits) and a tv series star in it and my total earnings on photos from that event (the actual production and producters circle party following)is currently at $160. The event was back in June, so I'm not anticipating a big rush at this point. Maybe the sales would have been more brisk if VP Cheney were in the show.