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zepp

As the title reads: Interesting article on creative professions and speculative job offers.

http://www.no-spec.com/archives/i-wi...-written-this/

PeteQ · 09-14-2007, 09:08 AM

That was excellent Frank, thanks!

Joe_Lorenzini · 09-14-2007, 09:36 AM

That's a well spoken article, thanks for posting!

I'm interested to see if someone who's starting out in the biz could respond...

_/oe

ShaneKislack · 09-14-2007, 10:02 AM

Yeah, nospec has been around for a while. The only people that would argue with it are hungry newbies that think they can 'break in' to the field by offering value through spec. They always change their mind, usually too late.

Jaggz · 09-14-2007, 10:04 AM

Well...this like many other topics is sure to bring in a W I D E selection of opinions and ideas but here is my take on it all.

I've just recently in the past year or so, elevated to a point where I thought I could charge folks for my services. In the past, as I was learning, I felt almost like I "had" to do jobs for little to no profit in order to get the job and gain the experience. I would also like to think that many photographers just starting out, (me included), don't feel comfortable charging....because then it becomes the whole, "I paid for services, therefore I am the customer....pressure deal". It can be a lot for some to handle.

Many beginners will jump all over stuff like this in order to get some "portfolio" images without the pressure of a paying customer. It is a delicate balance between learning and providing....the photographers are learning and still providing images to clients, with little to no pressure. Family members will only allow you to use them as "models" or to practice on for so long....so these may be an opportunity for those type folks.

Now, on the other hand....I think the companies/folks that are posting requests like this are not the top-hand companies seeking great results....they just want the "quick fix", get in and get out. Do I think what they are doing is right, no.

The bottom line....and I still think that this is very true, "You Get What You Pay For". I wouldn't expect a $500/day wedding photographer to provide the same results as a $15,000/day photographer.

Jaggz ---------> Stepping Down ---------> Good Day Folks!

ndsimm · 09-14-2007, 10:16 AM

well written
and I need to get one of those logos for my site!

ShaneKislack · 09-14-2007, 10:33 AM

...and before we get too far into the discussion, it's important to realize that there are times to do free or trade work. TFP is usually ok...unless one side is being taken advantage of. Charity is always good.

SPEC, as they are referring to, is one party generating valuable ideas (and spending lots of time doing it) for another company that intends to make money with the idea without paying for the creative process. Sometimes they don't even pay for the production process.

ndsimm · 09-14-2007, 11:13 AM

Good point Michael,
If done properly, the TFP and the charity work can both turn a profit at a later date. the key is to always put some type of value on your work. I've learned the hard way, that if you don't value it, no one else will either

Joe_Lorenzini · 09-14-2007, 11:22 AM

That article does provoke thought.

I'm not sure I buy the statement comparing professional illustrators to neurosurgeons, mechanics and IT's...

What determines a professional in the artistic industry? My personal opinion is that a "Professional" is someone who makes a living off of it. The NoSpec statement ignores the number of amateurs and "freelancers" who work at it. Notice the statement doesn't say "Professional IT" but "people in the IT field". Glib.

In 2006 there were 5.2 million DSLR sales, part of the 106 million digicam overall sales (worldwide). 5.2 million... how can that number be ignored? I realize the ramifications of such a number can be interpolated different ways, down many levels.

I'll relate a simple story... Last year a client I've been working with for years didn't schedule an annual photo and as such I called them up to have a nice chat and to see what was going on. Weeks later I received their card in the mail and not only had that person taken the photo that was used with their new DSLR, they also designed the card it was used on. Now I'll easily admit that it was a complete disaster of a card compared to years before but the client didn't think so and proudly stated on the card that they were responsible for the photo and card design this year. How many times do you think this same situation occurs these days (it could be little league photos, prom photos, senior photos, promotional material, etc...).

How can you ignore the fact that money is walking and the effect that walking can have on the ability to pay assistants, students or interns?

Now... As much as I agree with the 6 points the statement makes, I think it misses one very large perceived advantage in working with other photographers and that is the value of name dropping as a proof of experience and quality.

For example: What if you were considering 3 photographers including myself and I told you I've worked with respected photographers Dave Black, Steve McCurry, Fran Riesner and Leslie Spurlock. What would your perceived impression be? I'm guessing it would be "Hmmm, if he worked with them he must be pretty good". That valuable experience you "gave away" begins to pay off...

Have I? Sure. I took Steve's workshop and went out on the streets of New York shooting with him. Of course, I PAID HIM! and for that I get to drop his name and frame the personalized photo that hangs on my wall for clients to see. Now, I haven't worked with Fran but I took her workshop and feel like I could drop her name if the situation came up where it would be advantageous (I would reword it so it wasn't a lie though).

I have a lot of respect for the NoSpec statement and agree with the overall message it relays but come on, it's not as simple as they try and make it out to be.

I'll stop here as I know that was a lot to read (and I thank you for that).

I'm interested in alternative views.

_/oe

Joe_Lorenzini · 09-14-2007, 11:30 AM

I'll add one last thing.

Frank, your website is a perfect example of what I was talking about.

I would hire you without looking at a single photo based purely on your home page. (Fortunately for me, I've seen your work and know how freaking good you are)

But if you were starting out, why wouldn't you submit a photo for free to some of those publications in order to post references like that? (general statement).

_/oe

ShaneKislack · 09-14-2007, 11:33 AM

Joe,

if the client is impressed that you had worked with Fran...why wouldn't he just hire Fran?

The real truth is that most clients have never heard of the photographers you have worked with and therefore leave with either no impression, or the impression that there are five better photographers right there.

Joe_Lorenzini · 09-14-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaneKislack

Joe,

if the client is impressed that you had worked with Fran...why wouldn't he just hire Fran?

The real truth is that most clients have never heard of the photographers you have worked with and therefore leave with either no impression, or the impression that there are five better photographers right there.

Because I'm 50% cheaper. Granted I'd be 80% worse but the people who realize that fact are Fran's clients for life (just ask Fran).

Ok, then, let's replace photographers names with publication names. Same deal.

_/oe

Joe_Lorenzini · 09-14-2007, 11:43 AM

Another case in point. As I was writing out my diatribe this email came in:

http://www.greatphotography.com/clas...eetingcard.htm

What effect do you think type of thing has on professionals in the area?

_/oe

PS. I took a few classes from Rob years ago and liked him a lot. The post isn't intented to shed negative light on him or the class.

ShaneKislack · 09-14-2007, 01:20 PM

Is it taking work away from cardmakers? Is that the question?

zepp · 09-14-2007, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe_Lorenzini

I'll add one last thing.

Frank, your website is a perfect example of what I was talking about.

I would hire you without looking at a single photo based purely on your home page. (Fortunately for me, I've seen your work and know how freaking good you are)

But if you were starting out, why wouldn't you submit a photo for free to some of those publications in order to post references like that? (general statement).

_/oe

One might very well submit a photo for free or at a reduced price to get their foot in the door with guaranteed benefits down the line. You must weigh the worth of these benefits yourself. One word of advice; make sure you educate your client up front teaching them that this is a business and the generosity you're extending this one time is not normal procedure. One might invoice the client as normal and then extend a discount to balance the amount due to nothing. In doing this you would be showing the client, in writing, the normal cost of doing business.

Remember, it’s very hard to convince a client of your worth after you have been giving them a product for next to nothing or nothing at all.