Now I've seen it first hand...

[gardener]

Started to put this in the sports forum (Showcase/Sports), it didn't seem appropriate there so I'll put it here. Mods, feel free to move it if it's inappropriate...
Re: Amateurs selling kid sports photos
I was at my oldest granddaughter's playoff soccer game today as usual, and taking photos as usual. While I invaribly follow the ball/play so get other team members occasionally without the grandbrat being even close to the ball, I typically just make a CD and give the whole game to Son #2, keeping only the pics of my granddaughter for myself and grandma. Son #2 keeps the CD's and picks out a few of daughter and her best friend (also on the team) to keep and dumps the rest as far as I know. He's indicated, at least to me, that he doesn't pass the CD around to the other parents so pics pretty well stay in the family as it were...
While it's not mentioned here often except in the wedding forum, I see whole strings of posts on other forums occasionally about the amateur photographer who is selling game pics and screwing up the pro person's profit margin... There is great groaning and moaning about how Amateur Bob's pics leave a lot to be desired and there is little or no processing applied so they're not as "perfect" as the pro's... A reasonable argument...
Today though, I saw it first hand... The coach asked a friend of his to take both team and game pics for sale to the parents and this young fellow was there clicking away. I'm standing on the sideline downfield with M2n and 100-400 in hand, usually pretty much by myself as I always do, and I notice Mr. Photographer (MP) suddenly standing beside me. We do the Hello, Great Game! thing and I move off 10' or so... MP follows. I move back the other way... and he follows. He asks about my 100-400. Ok, it's a Canon da de da de da and so on.
"It's pretty big... How far will it shoot?" says he...
"How far will it shoot What?" says I.
"I mean... well, how big a picture does it make?" says he...
"Big enough" says I.
We go back and forth in this vein until I told him that the game was still going and I had to/wanted to shoot more pics of my granddaughter so Excuse me, but See ya!
MP then walked around the end of the field where he set up right on the goal line and started clicking away until the ref told him to skedaddle. He then walked over to the opposing side and situated himself dead center of the opponent's bench. He got some funny looks out of that one but at least they didn't pop him upside the head and tell him to leave. MP then decides I'm his buddy again and comes over to ask questions about "taking soccer pictures" as well as how to do it... Mind you, there weren't any questions about aperture, shutter speed, etc etc etc, but rather.. I just shoot everything on auto, do you? "No I don't" says I...
Ok, I'll help someone if I can and IF it's not interfering with my own photography mission but now I see the pro's complaint first hand. The young man had a new Nikon with a 7?-300 lens (he wasn't sure about the 7? part but I just left it at that), he knows nothing about his camera, settings, shooting options, his lens, OR soccer and he has shot exactly 3 games, one of which he said didn't turn out at all because it was "pretty dark out there", and he's taking kid's pics to sell for some undetermined amount of cash.
Ok, I didn't see his picures and probably never will but the experience does not bode well as to the potential quality of the final prints. Yes, I may be totally wrong and he may be the next big name in sports photography but then again, maybe not.
The point to all this rambling is that until today, I don't guess I'd ever met a total photography beginner who had high hopes of selling his pictures from a game. And then it struck me, THIS is what the pro people are complaining about and why their bottom profit line keeps getting smaller and smaller. He seemed a nice enough guy but totally out of his league on this one, especially from a sales standpoint.
Pro people? You have gained another supporter today... me.

[AndrewCCM]

[CaptainTom]

[CobyPhoto]

Awww...Come on Andrew - quit wavin that flag!



CJ

[timbertoes]

Geee, I dunno. in your exact situation, I'd rather make freinds.

Last MX race. A Mom with a Canon and reasonable lens (70-300 or thereabouts )
was shooting from the spectator stands.

So obviously, she wasn't likely going to buy a CD or Prints from me. nor was she going to get the better images.

Walked over to her, and took her out onto the track. Told her the vantage points, and why I shot from those places.

Then I showed her a few settings, to take her off of sports mode. Could not tell her too much, as was not familiar with her camera.

I have lots of decent images of her son, and made freinds, earned some respect.
Felt great to help out.

[smoothassilk]

Geee, I dunno. in your exact situation, I'd rather make freinds.

Seems to me, person's of this nature always go the fartherest in life. Not like every pro out there wasn't a newb at one time. Given' they don't always come up at the right time. But lifes full of surprises. Give them a TPF referral card, show them a trick for there camera, if u know one/if not they got a place to go and learn from.

[jon_k]

Hi gardener,

That was me at that game asking you those questions about your camera. Will you teach me what ISO, shutter speeds and apertures do again? I want to take good pix. I saw some of your pix and there really good, any idea where I can buy a 900x zoom lens for my camera?

If you want to meet up sometime and talk, lets do it! I always like making friends in the industry.

[ITRacer121]

Originally Posted by jon_k

Hi gardener,

That was me at that game asking you those questions about your camera. Will you teach me what ISO, shutter speeds and apertures do again? I want to take good pix. I saw some of your pix and there really good, any idea where I can buy a 900x zoom lens for my camera?

If you want to meet up sometime and talk, lets do it! I always like making friends in the industry.

thats jacked up but funny!

I also see it from the other point as well.
I was at a golf tournament a few weeks ago with my D80 & 18-200 VR, standing in line and notice there is a guy standing there with a D200 & 70-300 VR.

I say "nice set up you got there"
he says back "yeah"
I say "you getting anything good"
he says "no" & brushes me off

I was just trying to make small talk, not steal his business.
I guess when I think of a pro I think of someone who is confident enough in what they are selling to not be threatened by the newBs. Therefor they wont be total jerks when you try and be friendly.

[gardener]

Anthony... Why do you assume that both I and the person who "brushed you off" at the golf match are jerks? Couldn't it just be that either of us was there with our own agenda and/or didn't feel like making small talk with someone we didn't know? I don't know about the guy on the golf course but I don't talk much in real life and if I'm doing something already, I rarely utter a word at all, much less make conversation with strangers other than the normal formalities when two people come together.
Personally, I don't go to my granddaughter's sports activities to make a new friend whether he/she is toting a camera or not. While I'm courteous to people, I don't go out of my way to meet people or make new acquaintenances while the game is going on. I go to watch and photograph my granddaughters doing what they do on the field. As a practical matter, I have acquaintenances already and unless you're pretty damn interesting, I'll be courteous to you too and then go my own way while I hope you go yours. If he'd have wanted to talk after the game then it might have been a different story, but he didn't.
As to "pro" shooters, they're there as a business proposition... the pictures are money in their pocket as it were. While you want to talk gear, they may be missing shots that they can sell later so unless you can benefit them in some way, I'd say leave them alone too..
Just because you want to be friendly at some certain point in time doesn't mean everyone else does too.
As to timbertoe's story of how he took someone down to the track for better camera position? I think it was very nice of him to do that for a stranger and I give him extra points for the extra effort but that's his way of doing things, just not mine in this particular instance.

In any case, my original subject was about a standard complaint of sports and other business shooters noting that newbies with cameras are reducing their profit line because of cut rate pricing with only mediocre prints, not about brushing off another guy with a camera who wanted to ask questions while I was doing something else that was far more important to me at the time.

[ITRacer121]

First of all I NEVER assumed you are a JERK. I do not know you and that would be an unfounded statement.
If you would have read my post fully you would have noticed that we were "standing in line" & not on the green while he was shooting. So the only shot he could have missed was the hot dog vender.
I understand that being a "pro" photog is a business proposition & it is hard making a living in an industry when the avg. Joe thinks he can do it himself.
I am a real estate agent by trade & believe me we have people buying homes on thier own with no idea what they are doing & avoiding legal battles only out of ignorance. When all along my services are free to them. It makes no since?
But that should be beside the point, you where not there to make money in the first place, as you stated in the first post.

But the point I was trying to make is that a little hospitality goes a long way in this field. You ever hear the saying "you catch more flyswiht honey then venigar"?
Im a begginer in this & a little help from a pro would go a long way. Plus the more you show them they do not know the more they will understand that they are out of thier league & use your services.
Lighten up, this should be fun. Maybe if you were more talkative to the parents at the games you could sell some of those pics you are taking for nothing & sending to your son to be trashed.
Good Luck!

[barP]

Originally Posted by gardener

Anthony... Why do you assume that both I and the person who "brushed you off" at the golf match are jerks? Couldn't it just be that either of us was there with our own agenda and/or didn't feel like making small talk with someone we didn't know? I don't know about the guy on the golf course but I don't talk much in real life and if I'm doing something already, I rarely utter a word at all, much less make conversation with strangers other than the normal formalities when two people come together.
Personally, I don't go to my granddaughter's sports activities to make a new friend whether he/she is toting a camera or not. While I'm courteous to people, I don't go out of my way to meet people or make new acquaintenances while the game is going on. I go to watch and photograph my granddaughters doing what they do on the field. As a practical matter, I have acquaintenances already and unless you're pretty damn interesting, I'll be courteous to you too and then go my own way while I hope you go yours. If he'd have wanted to talk after the game then it might have been a different story, but he didn't.
As to "pro" shooters, they're there as a business proposition... the pictures are money in their pocket as it were. While you want to talk gear, they may be missing shots that they can sell later so unless you can benefit them in some way, I'd say leave them alone too..
Just because you want to be friendly at some certain point in time doesn't mean everyone else does too.

brilliant! i'm in sales, so at work, i have to talk to people. part of the job. i used to be an engineer, so there will always be a part of me that's focused only on what's in front of me, and i have nothing to say. that's the part that comes out when i'm shooting, and somebody that wants me to tell them how to take pictures instead of paying their own dues can be a real pain. if things aren't too busy and i'm obviously not engaged, it's different, but some people just don't know when to step off.

from a business perspective, i actually view the influx (encroachment?) of "semi-pros" and wannabes as a good thing. it means photographers have to start getting better at all the things every other small business owner has to be good at to survive.

wp.

[rott]

Maybe pro photographers aren't capitalists? Fuel, meet fire.

[barP]

Originally Posted by rott

Maybe pro photographers aren't capitalists? Fuel, meet fire.

many of them aren't. they're "artists" and that's a whooooole different animal.



wp.

[ITRacer121]

Originally Posted by barP

many of them aren't. they're "artists" and that's a whooooole different animal.



wp.

I think you guys are right.

[BWDPhoto]

It could be worse...I came across a young photog in training this week and he was touting his $40 session fee which includes a 3 hour session, 500 guaranteed images, all images on disc, unlimited clothing changes and up to 10 location changes (no mileage fees by the way). Starting print prices - $2 for a 4x6!!!! Nice enough kid, but still didn't understand all of the settings on his camera and still uses the on-camera flash for his 'pro work'.

I'm all for helping a newbie out when I'm not super busy or something - but this one gave me a chuckle or two.