Kicked Out of the Arena

[laawaaris]

I photographed a celebrity last night ... it went really great and I got some very nice and usable photos.

However, the celebrity's agent told me that I was not to take any candid photos - no photos of the photo in the moment shaking hands, or while speaking on stage.

I didn't listen to him and shot photos (very slowly and discreetly) in the arena while she was talking. The agent found me, used very fowl language and kicked me out. (He actually took my camera and tried to throw it in the trash).

He told me that since I was disrespectful, etc - it was grounds for a lawsuit against me.

I don't mean to disrespect, but I only shot the celeb because the company who hired me told me to shoot candids. I did not want to disappoint so that is what I did.

Obviously there was a miscommunication between the company and the agent. But what do I do now? Who has rights to the photos? Can I keep them in my public portfolio? Can I sell them online to other interested parties? Or should I just refrain from doing all of this?

[laawaaris]

i think i want to sell the photos ... people would like to have them ...

are the photos public domain? i know that i can take a photo of someone on the street with his face visible and even sell it and they cannot win a lawsuit ...

what about a celebrity speaking in an arena at an event which anybody can publicly buy tickets to attend? can i sell a photo that i take there of the person? would the courts award me the same "freedom of speech" rights as they would if it were a lady on the street ?

[PeteQ]

You need to find what rights your client secured for the release and publishing of said images. Many concert/event/sports/etc. photographers are limited to the scope of where and what they can shoot as a stipulation for them or their company getting access.

Also, if they were in an arena it's not necessarily "public". Being in...say the American Airlines Center, while it is open to the general public, it is a private venue and they can place restrictions on you. Chances are the the tickets may spell out that an attendee may not use images taken for commercial use. You may have no standing to use them at all except for personal (not portfolio) purposes. Just because you buy a ticket to an NFL game does not mean you can sell that poster of Tony Romo commercially, read the back of the ticket. Organizations and celebrities protect their likenesses with great zeal.

I'm sure there will be more responses. Your best bet is to contact an IP attorney if these are so good you really want to use them. Be prepared to spend some money to do that.

Lastly, by ignoring the request of the agent you may have just damaged the relationship between your client and the agent. Don't be surprised if your client calls you wondering why he got an earful from and angry agent. The disconnects were between you and the agent and you and your client if YOU did not ask what the limits were. You should have inquired what your limits were, it's part of your job if you are promoting yourself as a professional. What you did by trying to sneak pictures moves you away from a professionally respected photographer and towards a paparazzi photographer. If that is your goal, then you are on your way....

[RHoldenSr]

I have to agree with PeteQ.

Most events have guidelines laid out with the arena for every event. You were in the arena and you refused to abide by the agents instructions. I do believe you can be held liable by the arena and the celebrity/agent.

Did you call and ask the event manager what the guideline were prior to?


Okay kids can you say "Paparazzi"

[zepp]

Kind of like a photographer asking for autographs at a sporting event. Somethings you just don't do and not following instructions is one of them.

[LoungeLizard]

Originally Posted by zepp

Kind of like a photographer asking for autographs at a sporting event. Somethings you just don't do and not following instructions is one of them.

...or the wedding photographer taking "stealth" shots at the ceremony after being told no photos allowed.

Professionals follow the rules. Period.

(Not to imply that anyone in this thread is not a professional. Just saying that if you are handed rules - follow them.)

[boxofrocks]

It doesn't sound like you acted very ethically or professionally in this situation. You even used the words "I didn't listen to him". That was the client of your client--therefore it was sort of your client in a sense, too. If your client doesn't make money, you don't make money.

I've been fortunate enough to shoot several events with very recognizeable celebrities as the subjects. I was contracted by the PR firm to do so. The VERY first thing I do before things ever get started is look for the celeb's handler and the event manager and tell them what I've been asked to do and make sure that's kosher. If not, I go immediately to my client and tell them what I was told. That puts the onus on them to make sure they get any differences of opinion straightened out. Failure to do this puts several relationships at risk, and if you don't think doing business is all about the relationship, well, we all learn that soon enough.

Like Pete said, you put yourself at further risk by trying to sell these photos. I won't even go into the additional perception problem you might have if your client ever finds out you're trying to make additional profits from photos they already paid you to take that may or may not even have the appropriate model releases that will allow you to sell them.

When shooting events, especially those with celebrities present, you need to make sure there are clear and constant lines of communication open between you, the client, the celeb, and the manager of the venue. As you can clearly see, failure to do so can lead to all kinds of problems. Whether he was right or wrong, you're lucky all the agent did was toss you out. Looks like you have a few fences to mend. I'd start making phone calls that start with "I'm sorry" if I were you.

[CobyPhoto]

[JohnT]

Originally Posted by boxofrocks

I've been fortunate enough to shoot several events with very recognizable celebrities as the subjects. I was contracted by the PR firm to do so.

Tom, you seem to get a ton of business. I sure wish I knew how you did it. Of course, I understand if you're reluctant to share that aspect. :-)

(Not intending to hijack the thread.)

[boxofrocks]

Originally Posted by JohnT

Tom, you seem to get a ton of business. I sure wish I knew how you did it. Of course, I understand if you're reluctant to share that aspect. :-)

(Not intending to hijack the thread.)

At the risk of sounding smug, I get a lot of my business from referrals because people enjoyed the process and recommended me. I'm not the best photographer on TPF, hell, I might not even be the best photographer on my block, but I learned how to manage client relationships after 17 years in the business development world.

After the first of the year I'm planning on putting together a workshop that covers this topic and many others. I've already spoken to Abel about it, and just need to firm up the details. It will be a real class with an outline, actual presentations, and hands on interaction.

[JohnT]

Originally Posted by boxofrocks

At the risk of sounding smug, I get a lot of my business from referrals because people enjoyed the process and recommended me. I'm not the best photographer on TPF, hell, I might not even be the best photographer on my block, but I learned how to manage client relationships after 17 years in the business development world.

After the first of the year I'm planning on putting together a workshop that covers this topic and many others. I've already spoken to Abel about it, and just need to firm up the details. It will be a real class with an outline, actual presentations, and hands on interaction.

This sounds great. I look forward to more details. Thanks!

[keensb]

I am pretty sure there are no grounds for lawsuit, and I am pretty sure you can do what you want with those photos without legal repercussions. However, ethically and professionally... anyhow, its your client and their professional relationships you are messing with, so ask them how important it is to them

[jonnydonut]

never break a rule and post it on TPF. Trespassing to get a photo, sneaking into or onto anywhere, taking a photo without permission, speeding. There's a group of the posters here who just cant handle it, and have to say something. I'm pretty sure people have even said they would shoot you with a gun if they saw you shooting with a camera on their property.

He already broke "the rules", now he's asking questions to make sure he doesn't break more. I mean, how does paparazzi get by with what they do? Unfortionatly I don't know what to tell you other than check with the client. I wouldn't delete the photos, but I would probably not put them in an online portfolio either, or sell them. A physical portfolio would be different. Sorry I don't know what to tell you, but I'm interested in this thread to see if there is a conclusion.

[JohnT]

Originally Posted by jonnydonut

never break a rule and post it on TPF. Trespassing to get a photo, sneaking into or onto anywhere, taking a photo without permission, speeding. There's a group of the posters here who just cant handle it, and have to say something. I'm pretty sure people have even said they would shoot you with a gun if they saw you shooting with a camera on their property.

Some of us actually believe in abiding by a set of ethics/morals/courtesy or whatever you want to call it. All it takes is a few inconsiderate photographers to give people a negative impression of SLR photographers in general. Although generalizations are not good and often unfair, they do exist nonetheless.

Bobby posted his dilemma and asked for feedback. That's what he got from some seasoned, professional photographers. I do not see the problem with this.

[ppcass]

I shoot several events at a school here in town and former Spurs Star David Robinson's son goes there. David attends a lot of these events. There are no guidelines for images, what can be done with them or anything like that, but he is there as a parent, and every photog that has worked these things recognises that. No images, no pestering for poses and no autgraph requests. And if there were guidlines, I know they would be followed to the T. It just makes sense sometimes to follow the rules and the rules of common sense.