I learned a lesson

[texxter]

I had a bad business experience, made mistakes and learned from them. I am sharing it here for others to benefit, hopefully.

A friend at work (my non-photo job) enjoys photography like me, and we talk about images quite often. His wife does makeup as a side job and she's quite good at it. She would like to have her website redone, with more professional pictures than the ones she has now. While her husband could take pics for her website, she really liked my style and wanted me to do the work.

MISTAKE #1 - I agree to do this as a favor to my friend.

She got two models, dresses and stuff and organized everything for a shoot session at her house. I commit my Sat afternoon to create images of her models for her.

MISTAKE #2 - I don't sit down with her and the models prior to the shoot to go over the release model/non-comercial contract I had prepared for them to sign. Next time no work is done until everybody is clear about who gets what and the forms are signed.

We did the shoot and I left the forms there for the models to sign. I use a non-commercial release/contract that specifies what the model (and MUA in this case) get and also my intentions to use the images for promotion, but not for sale.

I edit a few pictures, put them up on my website as a sample of what the images will look like. Then I put together contact sheets and deliver them to them to pick out up to 40 images which I plan to deliver in web sizes. Still no release form signed.

After a few days I get an email saying that they love the images but she thought she was getting high resolution images and not just web size - she wants to print them for her book. I respond indicating that the contract is for web images (the only thing we discussed) and she's welcome to purchase full rez images or prints at my standard prices.

She responds later saying that she cannot sign the contract and the release - she's not ok with my using the images for promotional purposes. The contract indicated that I wasn't giving myself the right to sell the images, only to use them for promotional purposes. But the MUA doesn't want that either. I explain to her that I don't need permission from her to use my images, only releases from the two models. I think this pisses her off.

MISTAKE #3 - Be careful telling the truth when people are upset.

After going back and forth a couple of times, explaining that the photographer owns the images and providing 40 web sized images for website for free is actually quite a deal in exchange for just promotional use, she tells me that she and the models will not sign anything and she wants all the images destroyed.

At this point I am just upset that my intention to help a friend is totally backfiring and this MUA is telling me what to do with my images. I share this with my wife, who's much wiser than I am, and she suggested just dropping the whole thing, deleting the pictures and using this as a learning experience.

MISTAKE #4 - I should have sat down with her, asked how may images she wanted to print, perhaps given her 3 full rez images and 20 for the web, patch things up and keep a friend instead of making an enemy.

Take care,

Paco

[CaptainTom]

Lesson learned.. Is it too late to make amends and try for the mediation ?

[JohnT]

You gave an inch, they want a mile. Some people are like that. I would let things cool down a bit, then arrange to meet and discuss calmly--possibly with mediation as Tom suggested. In the end, though, it isn't worth losing a friendship over.

[HotHolly]

Originally Posted by JohnT

You gave an inch, they want a mile. Some people are like that.

A whole lot of people are like that. I've said this in other posts.

Its a rare person, friend or family, that won't take a mile when you give them an inch. I have had only 1 friend that consistently behaves greatfully, AND values my work and time. She never asks for anything for free, never complains about any of the shots, prices, or anything. She's the only one that gets huge discounts and freebies from me. She's the exception. This is only 1 person, out of God knows how many, where I was compassionate (or stupid) and it did not come back to bite me on the butt. It usually does...'cousin crab grass' recently - as Tom put it. lol.

Anyway, keep the images. Things will simmer down eventually.

PS - Cousin Crab Grass took the album I gave her to a photog in her town to 'fix' what she thought I screwed up. She whined about how long I took, this, that, and the other thing to the local photog. The photog told her she got her book in a timely manner; this, that and the other thing was normal; and btw - this is a $5,000 wedding album. Cousin Crab Grass called me the next day and sheepishly apologized. I'd told her it was an expensive album...I don't think she was listening though. Thank God she didn't take the album to WalMart. Ugh.

Oh - and this is the only sit. so far where the person found out that that they were mistaken. That doesn't usually happen.

I have to go cook a turkey.

[Concisus Cognatus]

It's saddening that we have to deal with so many people who are like that. I guess the saddest part is there is no way to identify their kind before we are involved with whatever the endeavor is. I've been bitten by that bugaboo on more occasions than I care to remember.

[Arnor]

Hi Paco,

A lesson that I learned long, long time ago was never to do business with my friends or family. Expectations are then based on personal feelings and not business. If you have friends or family members that you trust to make the distinction between personal issues and business issues, it's ok. Most people have problems separating the two. I have developed friendship with some of my clients (not in photography) and that has worked out fine. I stay away from developing business with my friends - or family:)

Best regards,

[andyz]

So if you used the images for your promotional site, and had her name as the MUA, she'd have gotten more advertising, hmmmm, yea, I can see why she'd object to that. Maybe you should have offered to pay them for your time making the images and post processing them. (Now I'll take my tongue out of my cheek and get back to reading posts. )

[Concisus Cognatus]

I would add to that group "low-to-no" budget buyers. They want professional results but flat-out refuse to pay anything even remotely approaching a professional price.

Originally Posted by Arnor

... never to do business with my friends or family. ...

[texxter]

Thank you all for listening and sharing your experiences. I do blame myself for not handling this better - regardless of her position. Most people are just ignorant, not necessarily malicious, about how the photography business works - many people feel that if they are depicted on the picture, they "own" the image, they don't know anything about copyright, etc. And yes, they think that because I enjoy creating images and "it doesn't cost me anything" I should give my work away for free.

All the advice is good, keep it coming!

Thanks

[ramblinray]

It has been my experience that "No good deed goes unpunished." Never delete an image you like and took just because someone snivels. Most people come to their senses eventually. Note the word most used in that sentence. Not all people see the good/great deal they are getting from a friend. Some people are users and will never change, least wise not until they receive a cosmic slap up side the head. You did nothing that most of the rest of us haven't done or will do at some point in time. Stand that high ground and let the bodies fall where they will.

[boxofrocks]

Originally Posted by HotHolly

PS - Cousin Crab Grass took the album I gave her to a photog in her town to 'fix' what she thought I screwed up. She whined about how long I took, this, that, and the other thing to the local photog. The photog told her she got her book in a timely manner; this, that and the other thing was normal; and btw - this is a $5,000 wedding album. Cousin Crab Grass called me the next day and sheepishly apologized. I'd told her it was an expensive album...I don't think she was listening though. Thank God she didn't take the album to WalMart. Ugh.

Oh - and this is the only sit. so far where the person found out that that they were mistaken. That doesn't usually happen.

I had something similar happen once. It's actually somewhat gratifying, isn't it?

[HotHolly]

Eh, I debated whether or not to write this part...but it has to do with how we deal with difficult clients. Some brides turn into bridezilla AFTER the wedding. Anyway, decided it might help someone, so I left it...

Originally Posted by boxofrocks

I had something similar happen once. It's actually somewhat gratifying, isn't it?

I wouldn't know. She apologized to Mike. She totally flipped out over the cameo when the book arrived and was spewing nasties at me. Nice, right?

Once our clients start cursing at me, they loose the right to talk to me. (This is more likely to happen with weddings than with other areas of photography. Some people that were happy and pleasant turn into nuts after the wedding).

My dad had a store when I was little. He told me a few things about difficult customers. When we 1st started the biz we had some clients decide they could curse me out and I should just take it. I decided that, no matter how sour things went, I would not speak nasty to anyone.

So, when that happens and they start at me, I tell them they have lost their privilege to speak with me and they will need to finish out everything via email or mail.

My dad used to listen to them too - until they started cursing at him (and my dad swears like a sailor so I thought it was an interesting spot for him to draw a line). I drew that line and enforced it. If anyone looses their temper and spews a bunch of nasty crap with any of our staff, Mike or I scolds the client and tells them they can write with the rest of their concerns. It doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen. Some apologize when they get scolded. Others keep spewing and we show them the door. It hasn't hurt business at all. The customer is not always right. Sometimes the customer is an idiot. <-- And this is a rare exception to the reg. customer, just to be totally clear.

Kind of sucked that it was family in this case. I didn't scold her since I have to see this person at family reunions and stuff. I just told her it can be fixed, its not a big deal. Don't worry...blah blah blah.

When she called back, Mike was going to put her in her place, but it turns out some stranger already did! I have to admit - I felt much better. The whole thing played out and ended. Thank God. Glad I didn't look like a jerk. Giving her a $5,000 book and getting labeled a jerk sucks. lol.

[Angelo]

Paco, I am certain many of us have done similar mistakes and they have changed, or should I say taught us lessons.

Back in the late '70s I had an incident which changed my desire to make photography a career. I shot portraits at an event, doing it just for my cost (film, paper, chemicals). It came out to $4.50 per 8x10. One person came to me and said she could have had one of the local photo chains make the 8x10 print for under $2

I told her next time tell the events people that they could get someone to come, set up the scenery for the background, provide the film and development, take the pictures, take orders, make the prints and deliver them for under $2. I don't know whether she cared for my answer.

After that incident I stopped doing that kind of work. Either I was going to be paid for time and work or I was not going to do it at all.

Please keep us posted on what you're going to do to try and get your friend back.

[LWimages]

I stopped doing favors for friends or family after I got my first website up with my portfolios.
Nowadays, if a friend of the family wanted me, I'd make them understand the value that I'm giving them, and it is never for free. And, I'd make them sign an agreement to my term based on the first conversation.
Oh, I also learned and convey to them that if the contract is not signed 1 day before the event date, then it means to me that there is no contract.

[Michelle Allmon]

Originally Posted by HotHolly

When she called back, Mike was going to put her in her place, but it turns out some stranger already did!

Did you take the photog out to lunch?