Looking for recommendations -- attorney and accountant

[AnnetteT]

I need to find an attorney and an accountant...

I want to get my business set up as an LLC...and I want it done properly...

Also -- I am lousy with bookkeeping, tax laws, etc. I always have been...and I want someone who is used to working with photographers or other creative industry professionals, who can guide me the right direction and allow me to do what I enjoy doing (instead of the stuff I don't!)

Any suggestions?

[CobyPhoto]

Annette,

Just a quick question, why are you wanting to set your business up as an LLC?

CJ

[AnnetteT]

From talking to other wedding photographers, that's the way to go to protect me and my family. Keeping the business liability separate from personal liability seems to be the smart thing to do.

I think if I were doing portraits...or other non-event work, I might feel differently. But I've already encountered two "off-center" brides during my portfolio building year that made me take a step back and wonder "what if...?"

One thing I fully intend to do next year is to screen my couples better. In both cases of the "off-center" brides, I had a bad vibe during our initial consultation. And, I've seen situations on other forums that make me feel strongly about going the LLC route.

[CobyPhoto]

Ok, I am NOT an attorney, (though I am a CPA even though I don't use it.) Think about this, it will cost you more on the front side and back side to do an LLC, plus more to get your taxes filed every year.

If you have a bank account, the bank will ask you to sign a personal guarantee on the debt to the LLC. Unless you are making more than 250K in income a year (from your business) you will not see ANY tax advantage, more a tax liability as an LLC. It will plain cost you more in the long run.

If you want to cover yourself from crazy brides, just get a GOOD comprehensive liability and O & E policy, have a good rock solid contract and make sure you deliver on that contract as stated. Because even if your an LLC, and you don't deliver on the contract you can still be sued and you will end up paying in the end. Just because you are an LLC doesn't mean that you won't have to pay if someone sues you.

I have been in business for myself over a course of 25+ years and never have I opted to do that an LLC due to the costs and issues surrounding it. (Well, once but we were making over 450K a year and it had definite tax advantages.)

Your best bet is to start the company as a sole proprietorship, keep financial records well, and seperate from personal finances and if and when you start producing 250K plus income then re-structure your business into an LLC or Small Corp. As a Sole Proprietorship you simple file a income/loss statement and report that on your personal 1040 every year. It will have more benefit to you in the beginning years this way until your business starts producing income.

Ask a lawyer, and he will tell you "sure LLC is the way to go!" Why? Cause he has to be involved and gets paid for it. Ask an accountant what form of business structure will be BEST for you financially and that is the form you want to use.

Just because you structure your business as an LLC DOES NOT mean that you are not liable for O & E and non performance on a contract! The client can still come after you and get that money/damages since you are a part of that LLC.

This is a general answer. It is a very involved process but in general terms, your reasoning behind structuring the business as an LLC is not as sound as you think, in terms of protection and financially.

Talk to a CPA.

CJ

[L Stegall]

Sound advice, indeed, from Coby. I am an attorney, although I don't do general corporate work. If I was giving advice to a friend, it would go something like what Coby just told you. The LLC is just a lot more work and expense and doesn't protect you from being sued (it may protect you from a personal judgment, but that's a different issue). Good insurance and a good contract are keys. Still, no one is immune from a potential lawsuit.

[keefeborden]

Thanks for the original question as well as the reply from Coby. Just as a point of clarification: what is an off-center bride?

Best, Keefe.

[AnnetteT]

LOL...I was trying to refrain from actually calling them "crazy"...

I had one bride this season who had a horrible wedding...her groom was two hours late and did not call or explain why. Consequently, she was miserable the rest of the day and her pictures showed it.

I promised 200-300 images from her coverage. I delivered 443.

She wasn't happy with them because she wasn't happy and smiling. Seriously.

Because the wedding started so late, the six hours they paid for was over before the reception began.

After I dropped off my assistant, I felt horrible for the bride...so I went to the reception -- hoping to get some better pictures of her. Unfortunately, she was still pissed off at the groom...and was pouting and looking "hard" all day. No laughing. No smiling. No dancing....nothing. I stayed there (on my own time) about 2 hours...shot some okay things of other people...and left...

I delivered the shots to her...she was unhappy from moment one. A lot of the later reception pictures were outdoors at night...shot at 1600 ISO with flash...grainy...noisy...blurry...some were okay, but most weren't usable.

Then, she threatened to sue if she didn't get some of the pictures I took at the reception (pictures that were past my coverage of 6 hours). Pictures she had seen me take, but that weren't good enough to include in the final images. She had a lawyer contact me. She wanted ALL the outtakes. All of them. All the images I shot -- good, bad, otherwise. In her mind (according to her sister), there were some magical wonderful images with a happy bride on there somewhere...

There weren't.

She ended up getting her father-in-law involved who had his attorney contact me.

Mind you, my contract is very solid. It says that the bride and groom will not receive everything that's taken...it says that I have the call as to which images are presented...how they're edited, etc. But because I have done nothing to separate my individual assets from my business. Nothing...I went ahead and gave them the images.

But first -- I made them sign a waiver that included the verbiage that they would not disclose where the "outtakes" came from and who shot them...and that the delivery of the outtake CD fulfilled the agreement between them and me.

That woke me up and I realized I need to protect my family and myself from this.

I'm a member of Digital Wedding Forum and there have been countless incidents posted there that are simply unbelievable...

I'm not trying to protect myself from being sued...I do realize that could happen regardless...I am just trying to make sure our personal assets, home, etc. wouldn't be part of it.

[andyz]

Sounds like this bride may not need the photos anyway. The marriage may be over before the ink is dry.

[L Stegall]

In terms of protecting your assets, such as a house, car, etc, many people don't realize that, particularly in Texas, people can't just seize many of your assets if they get a judgment against you. For example, your homestead is exempt property (with certain exceptions such as for debts owed the IRS or to your mortgage company). So, lots of people worry about something that isn't going to happen, even IF they get sued and even IF there is a judgment against them.

[AnnetteT]

Oh Andy... :-) You don't even know...

I told the father-in-law when I met him...

Me: "Let me just tell you how I think this went down"...

Me: "(bride) blames (groom) for the wedding pictures."

Father-in-law: "Yup."

Me: "(bride) is nagging (groom) to do something to get the rest of these pictures back."

Father-in-law: "Yup."

Me: "(groom) came to you for help and to get her off his back."

Father-in-law: "Yup. She is nagging him relentlessly. She won't leave it alone. She is convinced that the "good" pictures are the ones you weren't gonna show."

Me: "I want you to take a look at these...and tell me was all this worth it? These aren't pictures I would ever show to a client."

Father-in-law: "I will."

Me: "Oh...and one more thing.."

Father-in-law: "I know...this marriage is doomed...we all know it."

Me: (stunned look) Um...that wasn't what I was going to say...(but now that you mention it)...No...I was actually going to suggest that (groom) suggests to (bride) to hire ANOTHER photographer for a portrait session with wedding clothes on. Re-rent the tux...etc. That will probably get him out of the doghouse....At least she'll have some "happy" pictures...but make sure the photographer knows that smiles are critical. She hates serious pictures...

[CobyPhoto]

Annette,

YOU are NOT responsible for the Groom showing up 2 hours late. End of story. I am not saying that you shouldn't have tried to make her happy, but once she put a lawyer on me about HER grooms actions, I would have had my lawyer contact her lawyer and spell out the P's and Q's of the contract and that the photographer was in NO WAY responsible for the grooms behavior and that the photographers went above and beyond the contract by simply being at the reception. If they wanted to fight, I would have be very professional yet very courteous but bring it on.

She would have be in worse shape after a judge pitched her ass right on out of the court room for a frivolous law suite.

LLC is not going to protect you from this.

CJ

[AnnetteT]

CJ...

I definitely don't think an LLC is going to protect me from getting sued. But it would separate our personal money, assets, etc. (I think?) from being attacked...

And the bride's father-in-law is fairly prominent...CEO of a mid-sized corporation...He has several attorneys on his staff. I have no lawyer (yet).

When the attorney contacted me initially, he was VERY cordial but firm that they would be suing and would see me in court and unless I could afford a legal battle, I'd be better off to do what they wanted. Initially, I resisted. I know my contract is good. But after some of the things that happened here in the news recently...along with a case I've been following of another wedding photographer in Colorado on DWF...I started getting worried. What IF they did sue me? I'm just starting out but I have an income/savings from previous work...as does my husband...We have a child and tuition payments....We help support my husband's parents...

Like I said, it woke me up that I needed to get something in place...one, for accounting or bookkeeping because I have NO CLUE about any of that...setting up my business paperwork, filing anything...That is not me...I was on the math team in high school, but took nary a business course at any time. Give me an ad campaign to concept, and I'm on top of it...but books to balance...? things to file for this reason or another...at a certain time...I'm not that person. So, I need to find someone I can trust who is.

I have had several friends in the past have mixed results with hiring an accountant/bookkeeper without being referred. One of my friends is now in the process of trying to get someone else to "undo" the damage the other one did.

So...I thought with all the businesspeople on here...maybe someone has someone they work with who is trustworthy and is used to working with creative industry issues...I know, previously, I had a tax attorney/accountant who had no clue about what deductions I could take as a graphic designer. Many things I should have taken, he didn't...because he didn't understand it...So I'm not going back to him...

So...back to my original question...regardless of how I set myself up...I need to have an attorney I can develop a relationship with...I don't want to be scrambling around next time...without someone standing by...to pick up and go to work for me. I know PPA provides some legal counsel for certain situations...but their level of participation varies, depending on the situation.

[CobyPhoto]

Annette,

I understand your situation and concern, but in this case, LLC wouldn't help you a bit. If they sued, the money would awared (IF awarded) would have come from your personal funds, even if you were an LLC. It is like Lisa explained, they can't attack your home and certain other things, etc. etc. but you can't hide behind a corporate entity and NOT pay. You are still personally responsible.

As far as the attorney, he was doing just what an attorney does. Threaten and hope you cave. I would have tried to reach a compromise that satisfied the Bride, however if I would been approached by the lawyer in that manner, after attempting to comrpomise, knowing I have a contract, knowing that I went ABOVE and beyond the contractual terms and that the Groom's actions was the cause of the problem...I would have litterally LAUGHED in his face, told him I would see him in court and hung up on him.

Him threatening you doesn't change the fact you have a contract and you fulfilled it. That attorney was hoping that you would do just what you did. Cave in and give the bridezilla what she wants.

Being in business MEANS you have to be prepared for these types of situations and you deal with them. Always strive to be professional and courteous, but do not let the customer dictate your policy.

Your issue is totally unrelated the type of business structure that you choose. In this case, I would be looking for good insurance, O & E that would cover me for this type of eventuallity.

CJ