Daycare Kickback

[JMM]

Who of you offer daycare kickbacks, and if so, how do you determine how much?

[toverman]

My kids kick me without having to offer them money. Just chiming in because I'm interested in learning about the process, too. Daycare photos sounds like a ton of work, though!

[shanstu]

I haven't before, but I attended Chris Wunder's School Photography Boot Camp this summer, and he had a pretty elaborate Excel worksheet on how to determine the rebate for schools. It will be in my proposals for the next fall season.

Most schools already know how much the rebate is, either by percentage or total dollar amount. The school my children attend is a small private preschool / elementary school, and they expect at least $1000 back from orders.

[JohnT]

No answer to your question, but... The word "kickback" never conjures up anything positive in my mind. Maybe "reciprocation" would be a better choice.

[CobyPhoto]

A better word would be commission. That is actually in my general ledger accounts.

CJ

[JMM]

I fill that I am offering the daycare a service and offer only discounts to teachers and a package to the director. I hire my own assistant and offer professional portraits at daycare prices. It is very hard to get good daycare photo of a child that does not know you, wants to get up and run, crys, figits. Unfortunately, large companies now seem to have made it where you need to offer a "kickback". I had a daycare tell me they already had a photographer, call me a back, say my photos were really great, ask me if I could shoot in a couple of weeks, then ask me about their compensation. When I told them my policy, they said they need to talk to the director and have not called me back. Unfortunatly, don't expect daycares on quality alone. I personally wish all photographers would offer only the same, quality, hard work, photos and NO KICKBACK.

[CobyPhoto]

Originally Posted by JMM

I fill that I am offering the daycare a service and offer only discounts to teachers and a package to the director. I hire my own assistant and offer professional portraits at daycare prices. It is very hard to get good daycare photo of a child that does not know you, wants to get up and run, crys, figits. Unfortunately, large companies now seem to have made it where you need to offer a "kickback". I had a daycare tell me they already had a photographer, call me a back, say my photos were really great, ask me if I could shoot in a couple of weeks, then ask me about their compensation. When I told them my policy, they said they need to talk to the director and have not called me back. Unfortunatly, don't expect daycares on quality alone. I personally wish all photographers would offer only the same, quality, hard work, photos and NO KICKBACK.

I understand your feelings on this subject, however it wasn't the large companies that originally started this practise. It is the Daycares, Schools, Sports Clubs etc. that feel they should benefit from your receiving their business. It is a common practise in many other businesses and even with excellent customer service and product, they feel they should receive something in return for bringing you this business. (Much like commission sales.)

If they require a set % return, just build it in your package prices and compentsate for that amount. That is exactly what I do when this is a requirement for a job.

CJ

[JMM]

Is there a common percentage and is it off profit or sells? I have a friend that works for daycare and said when offered percentage, it took forever and was not much of anything, whatever that meant. Now she says they accept just discount for teacher and package to director as I do. It is fustrating.

[CobyPhoto]

It is very dependant on the amoung of sales and the wowrk involved for me. I have no set %. It is usually off of the Gross sales and not the Net.

CJ

[Graydon]

as a parent with 2 kids in daycare / preschool... I only have one constructive thing to add... really think about the packages that are offered and how parents are going to use these photos.

Our pre-school does portraits 3 times a year... which is fine with me... even knowing they are getting compensated (I call it incremental revenue for the school) is fine with me.

What I CAN'T STAND is that all of the packages include "useless to us" wallets... and to get a set of usable prints I'd have to spend way too much... or fork over $$ for the CD and an equally useless board mounted print.

I apologize for sidetracking the thread... but wanted to add in some relative experience that might help in the big picture... i.e. being able to tell a school that you offer a wide(r) selection of package options in order to cater to varying family dynamics / desires increases the probability of higher sales and thus x% of total sales really is a better deal than joe blow guaranteeing them $y for the opp.

[ldelacruz]

Originally Posted by JMM

I fill that I am offering the daycare a service and offer only discounts to teachers and a package to the director. I hire my own assistant and offer professional portraits at daycare prices. It is very hard to get good daycare photo of a child that does not know you, wants to get up and run, crys, figits. Unfortunately, large companies now seem to have made it where you need to offer a "kickback". I had a daycare tell me they already had a photographer, call me a back, say my photos were really great, ask me if I could shoot in a couple of weeks, then ask me about their compensation. When I told them my policy, they said they need to talk to the director and have not called me back. Unfortunatly, don't expect daycares on quality alone. I personally wish all photographers would offer only the same, quality, hard work, photos and NO KICKBACK.

I am not sure why you feel this way? When you are accepted you get the opportunity to take pics of 200 to 300 kids and the chance to meet 200 to 300 hundred families and showcase your work. The families also have friends and other kids. I can only imagine the amount of business that could come from this if you are a good not great photographer. The day care does all the work on the back end by sending your order form home, collecting the payment and I am sure they help during the shoot. If you only take day care photos then I agree with Coby.


You write it off as comission or advertising. I am sure most of you advertise and I can guarantee that you will never find a single source of advertising that will put you in front of 300 paying customers in one day. Maybe a corporate party or prom but I don't think it would even be close to the opportunity here.

I had 2 kids in day care and my wife would spend close to $100 per kid 2 to 3 times per year. She felt obligated because the other parents do it and they send the order form home in their daily packet.

[Graydon]

I think Lonnie makes a good point... and something to consider as far as being able to "collect" that contact information and do something with it.

The guy doing our preschool has not ever sent out nor contacted us in any way about doing family portraits directly with him... so I'm thinking 1 of 2 things... either he can't use the contact information obtained due to personal / privacy items the school has in place... or he's not fully leveraging the opportunity he has.

You could consider the "kickback" as the same payment one would make to buy a list of customers from any other source (seniors, new parents, etc...)

And if you find out that you can't market directly to the families due to privacy concerns at the school... maybe you could work in an end of the year flier for summer portraits?

One last thought for now... if you've got to provide some type of compensation to the school for the opp... maybe consider actually publicizing that fact as a positive thing that helps support the school.... of course, how it's received is highly dependent upon the school... lower cost church based schools... could be seen as a positive... higher cost private pre-schools... parents may think "screw that, I'm already paying enough to that school".

[JMM]

What I CAN'T STAND is that all of the packages include "useless to us" wallets... and to get a set of usable prints I'd have to spend way too much... or fork over $$ for the CD and an equally useless board mounted print.

I do not offer those useless 1/2 wallets and or offer packages, my are the by-the-each price with a free whatever when you spend so much.

When you are accepted you get the opportunity to take pics of 200 to 300 kids and the chance to meet 200 to 300 hundred families and showcase your work

The daycares I have shot have 50 kids or less. I do not know of any that have 200-300 in the area I live. The contact you get is a child name and a telephone number filled out on your order form. Sometimes, not even phone number. Most of my parents do not spend over $40 for a package and with not all ordering. Think about it, how many pics do you actually give (or get) to family and friends of your child?
I see the school does do some work, passing out order forms and collection money, that is it, compared to all the work I do. Putting together a good setup, expense of lights, camera, props, trying my best to get each child to look their best, post processing, putting in order, packaging prints, driving back and forth. Hince the discount for teachers and the package for the director. You would think the daycare makes enough off of each child, so you are providing them with an extra service for the price. If you bring your own assistance, which I always do, teachers are usually more hinderence than help.

[shanstu]

Originally Posted by ldelacruz

I am not sure why you feel this way? When you are accepted you get the opportunity to take pics of 200 to 300 kids and the chance to meet 200 to 300 hundred families and showcase your work.

If you are taking school photos, the goal of the school is to get the kids in and out as fast as possible. The workshop I attended advocated shuttling kids out of the set every 39 seconds. I consider school photography and portrait photography two different sides of my business. The expectation of school photographs is so low, I'm not sure you could expect to make a living if you tried to do it right according to portrait photography standards. If you take great photos of the children, the parents love them, chances are the school won't hire you back because you take too long.

Also, it doesn't make sense to put the effort of a $300 sitting fee into a portrait that will be purchased by the parent for $25. The money made isn't from pricing - it's from volume. That doesn't bring out the best in me. Don't count on the parent seeing the kid's mug shot and thinking, "Gee, this is a great shot of my kid. I'd like to hire him to do a classically posed $850 family lifestyle portrait in canvas to go on my wall." They want the lifestyle portrait for $25. It's happened to me.

I'm actually still conflicted about what I learned at the school photography boot camp, but I have a few schools as clients, and I also do some fast paced event work for our church. I needed to see the workflow, on set and in the computer, to help speed me up and make me more efficient. If I had to choose to do it fast, or do it well, I'd rather do it well.

In response to Graydon, in most schools there are privacy contracts in place preventing the photographer from contacting the parents directly. Making the rebate a condition of being able to market to the parents sounds like a good idea. They might not go for it, though, if the privacy requirements are set up for all school vendors, not just between photographers and parents.

[shanstu]

Originally Posted by Graydon

packages include "useless to us" wallets... and to get a set of usable prints I'd have to spend way too much... or fork over $$ for the CD and an equally useless board mounted print.

I understand your frustration, though the packages you describe are "loss leaders" and to get the two 5x7's and one 8x10 you want, they pad the order. In order to get a higher minimum order amount, they build the cheapest package with the least desireable products, and each package above that has the more desireable prints. Also, those packages have to be priced higher because the school expects up to 40% of sales as a commission. It sucks, but it's the system most schools have come to expect.