General Liability Insurance

[CaptainTom]

Originally Posted by abril1127

So "Texas PPA" is different from "PPA" right? You don't get that indemnification insurance with Texas PPA?
SO I guess you have to join Texas PPA to go to Texas school & the convention then the regular PPA to get the insurance options? Then your local PPA to actually get to go to some Monthly meetings and meet some local photogs.
Starting to think this is a racket!

Yeah I agree !! It's just too much trouble to get a decent education about what is going on in photography. You shouldn't have to belong to any organizations, let alone a national group (PPA), a regional group (TPPA), and a local group (DPPA).
I also heard that you can go to Texas school without being a member of anything ?? I also heard that you can attend meetings of your local PPA chapter without being a member ??? They do charge a fee for meetings, conventions, seminars, magazines, newsletter, etc. But, they should give me all those things for free just because I am a photographer !! Yeah, that's it.
I think I'll start my own organization and make a million bucks.

[bondarnes]

Originally Posted by abril1127

So "Texas PPA" is different from "PPA" right? You don't get that indemnification insurance with Texas PPA? SO I guess you have to join Texas PPA to go to Texas school & the convention.

Texas PPA is primarily in the business of Photography Education for our membership. That is why we offer conventions, seminars, and Texas School. We have discussed various insurance programs for our members and actually had some health insurance coverages offered to TPPA members in the early 1980's. They were successful for the insurance companies, but not so much for our membership. Since PPA offers indemnification coverage, it would be redundant for TPPA to offer the same thing.

Originally Posted by abril1127

The regular PPA to get the insurance options?

Since PPA is a national organization it has the clout to negotiate favorable insurance programs and other benefits for members of PPA. Unless the rules have changed, Indemnification coverage is part of the annual dues for portrait and wedding photographers. They also work with independent insurance companies to offer members business, liability, equipment, and other insurance.

Originally Posted by abril1127

Then your local PPA to actually get to go to some Monthly meetings and meet some local photogs. Starting to think this is a racket!

April, I suggest that before you decide this is a racket, you get involved with your local PPA guild there in Lubbock. I know most of the members there and can assure you that they volunteer their time and talents to help photographers just like YOU to become better photographers and better business owners. Now if those are things that you have no use for then maybe you are correct and it is just a racket.

Warmest Regards to you,
Don L. Barnes, Chairman of the Board
Texas Professional Photographers Association

[ShaneKislack]

Geez, where is all of this hostility coming from?

[abril1127]

Don I didn't mean my local group was a racket. Just that I had to join 3 different divisions of the same group to get all of the experience I'm looking for. I have been a member of my local group since August. I have had only 1 paying client this year. I'm sure you can understand how someone in my shoes would fill this way.
Can you go to Texas school with just being a PPA member and not a TPPA member?
I think the indemnification insurance has changed. Seems like I got a flier in the mail saying it was only $150 more a year. I'll go see If I can find it.

abril1127 added 13 Minutes and 53 Seconds later...Double Post Merged Below

The Malpractice Coverage (Indemnification Trust) is only $50 a year with PPA

[CaptainTom]

Originally Posted by ShaneKislack

Geez, where is all of this hostility coming from?

I think you are confusing sarcasm with hostility. Don't make me mad ...

CaptainTom added 7 Minutes and 26 Seconds later...Double Post Merged Below

Originally Posted by abril1127

Don I didn't mean my local group was a racket. Just that I had to join 3 different divisions of the same group to get all of the experience I'm looking for. I have been a member of my local group since August. I have had only 1 paying client this year. I'm sure you can understand how someone in my shoes would fill this way.
Can you go to Texas school with just being a PPA member and not a TPPA member?
I think the indemnification insurance has changed. Seems like I got a flier in the mail saying it was only $150 more a year. I'll go see If I can find it.

abril1127 added 13 Minutes and 53 Seconds later...Double Post Merged Below

The Malpractice Coverage (Indemnification Trust) is only $50 a year with PPA

I was wrong. When you submit your application for Texas School, your tuition is higher if you are not a TPPA member, and the extra $ gives you a one year membership in TPPA. So, in essence you do have to belong to TPPA to go to Texas School.

[bondarnes]

Originally Posted by abril1127

Can you go to Texas school with just being a PPA member and not a TPPA member?

Oh dear, we are back to insurance. In the beginning only a handful of out of staters attended Texas School, but when the numbers began to rise we had to add an additional fee for insurance on non members. Every year that fee rose, so the decision was made to just make every student a TPPA member for that year. We just use the extra funds for the parties.

[alwoodruff]

Originally Posted by Howard Barlow

Amanda,
I wasn't making fun of you. Actually, I would expect anyone to know what liability is, if only in the general use of the term.

As well, anyone going into business should understand they are liable, otherwise know as responsible, for anyone being injured while on their property, in their care, or following their advice. Of course, that is not an all inclusive statement, either.

If little Timmy knocks your background stand over and it hits him in the head, you will, in most cases, be financially liable for injuries, mental anguish, and a ton of other things lawyers can dream up.

Liability = responsibility.

I'm familiar with "liability" from personal insurance. I guess my main question as to why I would want liability insurance is b/c I don't have a studio or lights. I only shoot on location with my reflector and camera equipment. I do have clients in my house (i work out of my home) for their viewing and ordering session. I guess I'd want it b/c I have them in my home. But if I didn't have THAT situation, would I want it? If they tripped over a rock on the kimbell lawn during a session, would I be liable for that? I know that's a ridiculous example, but I can't imagine why else I'd need it.

As a soap box topic, I think people's ridiculous-ness on being lawsuit happy is really in the end going to ruin our economy. If people would just take responsibility for their own actions (like little Timmy's knocking over your studio backdrop being HIS fault, not yours as far as liability goes).

[CaptainTom]

The insurance issue is an unfortunate situation as has been said.

If you are in business you need liability insurance, unless you are willing to risk everything you have including your house, bank account, car, clothes, cameras, etc.
If somebody trips over a rock at the Kimball , they'll likely sue everybody they can think of. Having been the reason that they were there, you are a prime target.
If the wind blows one of your reflectors out of your hand and it splits little Johnny's head open, they won't likely say "oops, just an accident". They'll take you to court and you'll lose your shirt.
A local photographer was recently sued because the Tiara on the brides head was not placed there properly (according to them). The photographer had no hand in actually placing the tiara but they sued him because he "should have known it was wrong".. He won, but he had to go to court, defend himself, call expert witnesses, etc. Fortunately he is a PPA member and they worked on his side.
Do you have liability insurance on your car? Why bother? You're a good driver and never have any accidents. It's so that if and when something happens you won't be paying for it for the rest of your life.

[Howard Barlow]

What Tom said. Yes, if you engage in any business of any type, you need liability insurance.

Little Timmy wouldn't have to trip on the rock. If you told him to sit/stand/lean on it, and he got a cut/scrape/lost balance and fell/ants swarmed out from under it and covered his legs with bites, yeah, you may be in for the surprise of your life, not to mention the sorrow of ever going into business.

[FireHeart Photography]

I got liabity insurance and equipment insurance for 325.00 annually (15K of equipment). It it through another forum that I joined and don't know what the policy is of mentioning it here... they do 65% discount to members... I think PPA is close to the same amount

[mccls1030]

I'm using State Farm for liability and for just pennies more I can cover some (not all) of my equipment. For more that pennies I can cover the rest of my equipment. But this is a start, and it covers my cameras and some lenses.

[jonnydonut]

I'm curious who everyone uses and what their premium is? Anyone specifically using PPA's provider?

I currently use travelers for my liability and assests, and I just found out, (while shopping around again) that they don't cover home businesses..? It also turns out that they charge too much. ..Hence me on here browsing the forum.

So far the best places seem like state farm or liberty mutual.
Farmers was my choice for auto and home, but their rates for commercial are just too high.

PPA anyone, what do you pay?

[T. Adam Martin]

Originally Posted by CaptainTom

The insurance issue is an unfortunate situation as has been said.

If you are in business you need liability insurance, unless you are willing to risk everything you have including your house, bank account, car, clothes, cameras, etc.

Since this was bumped earlier today, I've had a chance to read through the thread. Another element that is being ignored is the object of liability. Like Tom said above, you are risking your "house, bank account, car, clothes, cameras, etc." by running a business without business liability insurance. This is, however, predicated on what/whom is liable. You can protect those aforementioned items by creating another person that holds all the liability: that would be the Limited Liability Corporation. By creating an LLC, you can further protect your personal assets because the only items at risk are the assets assigned to the LLC. You can't game the system and assign everything as personal assets (there are rules for determining what capital expenditures are counted as business assets - namely, are you deducting depreciation for tax purposes on some assets), but you can protect your real personal assets from business suits. The cost to file formation papers in Texas is $300.

Now, you still need liability insurance if you plan on being a going concern: if complaints are filed against you (aside from indemnification policy issues), your business assets (i.e. camera, lenses, lights, studio, etc.) are all at risk.

Originally Posted by jonnydonut

I'm curious who everyone uses and what their premium is? Anyone specifically using PPA's provider?

I currently use travelers for my liability and assests, and I just found out, (while shopping around again) that they don't cover home businesses..? It also turns out that they charge too much. ..Hence me on here browsing the forum.

So far the best places seem like state farm or liberty mutual.
Farmers was my choice for auto and home, but their rates for commercial are just too high.

PPA anyone, what do you pay?

Marsh is the PPA partner. I'd recommend using netquote and letting insurance agents come to you. There are a number of providers with reasonable rates. Many (if not most) of them have a minimum premium of $500.

[Howard Barlow]

I ain't a lawyer, and this ain't legal advice, but while a corp., or LLC, may have advantages, never believe they will shield you, personally, completely. It will not make you bulletproof.

[T. Adam Martin]

Originally Posted by Howard Barlow

I ain't a lawyer, and this ain't legal advice, but while a corp., or LLC, may have advantages, never believe they will shield you, personally, completely. It will not make you bulletproof.

Since these are public boards, you may want to give an explanation for your response. Legally, the LLC is an entity and the business you conduct as an agent of the LLC attributed to the LLC. I agree that all legal questions should be directed to an attorney for definitive advice; however, if you are out on a wedding shoot conducting business under your LLC and the bride decides to file complaint, she would be hard put coming after your homeowner's insurance should a judgment be filed against you. The court may seize the business's assets, but the personal assets do not belong to the LLC.

Please provide examples if you have some, rather than just cast cryptic aspersions on a valid, recommended business practice that just muddies the water for less educated/neophyte business owners. You may have some valid concerns that can be voiced and we can learn from them.