All Day Commercial shoot?

[peeker]

I have just started my business 10 days ago and I already have an exception to my normal family based portrait business... and need some help.

A company that knows me well has contacted me to shoot an event for them which would require:
- travel (fly) to another state
- shooting an event for 10 hours on day one, and 4 hours on day two
- sort and provide a disk of "best of's" for their promotional literature and website.

I have a handle the licensing of the images for use (without giving up the copyright). They will cover all of my travel expenses, I am looking for advice on the "daily rate" and one time licensing fee for the images I will take.

Here we go..
Scott

[TM_Images]

Scott,

Congrats on picking up the commercial shoot! I will chime in with my two cents, and am sure others will have their own opinions. For a shoot like this, I think you are exactly the right track by seperating the Day Rate from the Usage Fee. I will let you decide on the Day Rate by evaluating your experience, relationship with the client, profit margin etc. Make sure that you arrive at this number without taking into account the usage of the images. The Day Rate is the cost of your time, the Usage Fee, the cost of the images.

The Usage is another matter. I would start by narrowing down what exactly they are looking for. Most clients will start by telling you that they need "Buy-outs." I have a set number which is 5x my largest usage rate for a buy-out. Most of the time, they run from that and let me know that they actually need web usage, and powerpoint, or anything else specific. Promotional literature sounds quite broad to me, and can include everything from flyers and catalogs, to annual reports and proposals. The main idea is that the image has a different value to them if it is on their local flyer vs. in a proposal that could make them large sums of money.

The program I use as a starting point is FotoQuote. This software lets you narrow down all the parameters of the usage and give you a range of costs that other photographers charge. The other thing to take into account is the license duration. I always try for 1-yr rates, and at the end of the year, we send an invoice to keep using the images. For example, using FotoQuote, I can find the average price range for a Website image 1/4 of a page, used in USA only for a one year term, and that is what I charge for each image they request from me.

The final point is to find out who picks the "Best Of." For my clients, I upload a web gallery from which they pick their selection. I also leave that web gallery up so they can come back in the future and purchase more images. Make sure they agree to the number of images in an estimate first before you send them anything. Your best of might include 40 images, but they may only have the budget for 10, and getting images back is a dicey proposition at best!

I hope some of this rambling helped, PM me if you have any more specific questions about my rates or anything else. Thanks!

[peeker]

Thanks Tom,

Let me clarify for you and others as you are right... promotion use is too broad.

My understanding is they will use the images in three distinct ways:
1. Website
2. Promotional flyer(s), including a newsletter
3. Advertising for the next similar event

Lastly, I know the owner and his interpretation is to have a disk of the images for a flat, one-time rate. I'm not sure I will be able to get away with annual licenses. I will pm you in a few days when I gather my thoughts.

Thanks for the initial response as I do look for others to respond.

[CaptainTom]

Tom's advice is very sound.
Given the idea that the owner wants a CD with what sounds like unrestricted use of the images, another approach is to explain to him there can be two ways to accomplish his goals. First as outlined above by Tom. Second would be to quote a much higher day rate (that in essence totals the same as what you would license to him) and he gets the CD as described.
Either way, he needs to understand that it is the industry standard to price both of these ways. If you quote him a price, you might entice him by saying you can give him an X percent discount.

Don't give away your time or your talent. Make sure the details of the "expenses" paid are in writing. Does he give you an advance against expenses? What will he pay for? What level of hotel, a rent a car, a golf cart at the event? Meals? Three meals a day. Airfare? Mileage at what rate?
Extra cost for checking luggage ?
It's always good to get these things in writing ahead of time, especially the first time working for this client. You aren't being a pain in the a##, you are being a good businessman.

[TM_Images]

Tom hit on a great point I neglected to mention. There are often many expenses that go along with a shoot like this including transportation, meals, etc. Also think about post production expenses. If you have a workflow that requires many hours of photoshop work, bill that in as a "Post-Production Fee" Nothing is worse than spending four days on a project that you got paid for only two days. Make sure there is some caveat for those outlined in any contract.

Also, it seems like you may be trapped into giving them a cd with a flat fee, but you can still write a contract with Usage Rights making sure they understand that if you get a perfect shot which will be used for larger scale advertising, they can come to you for those rights in the future. It is always a good idea to be restrictive in both the use and duration of the images you produce. Always remember that a company that works without images is often not a successful company. Your shots help to brand, familiarize, and connect that company with their audience. That is a value that you bring to the table.

Last point I will say is that if you hope to work with this particular company again, or any other company in that industry, price yourself as would would wish to be paid in 5 years. This is a lesson I learned the hard way! Invariably, if you create a good product, they will come back, and nothing loses business and goodwill more than a drastic rate increase because your were undervalued the first time you worked for them. Commercial pricing is a tough game, but companies care more about the quality of the image, than the price (in my experience).

[peeker]

Tom's,

Thanks for the input. I owe them a quote by the end of next week. Once I put some teeth into my proposal, I may pm both/either of you for any questions I may be forgetting. I am very glad I found this forum as I am getting my business started. You guys are a great help!

Scott

scott peek photography
capturing the family experience™
www.scottpeekphotography.com

[CaptainTom]

Scott
I know you are worried that if you quote too high for them, they'll say they can't do it and you'll end up without the gig.
What is more likely to happen is that they will say something about that is more than they had budgeted. If this happens, come out and ask what they budgeted. If you can still do the job for that amount, then do it.
You will never get away with raising your price later if you find out you've bid too low.