These Rules are Null and Void

[brad]

Yes, thank you Abel for taking all these comments into consideration. As I said, I'll support whatever the final decision is (even if I don't like it)... I just was hoping that the decision wasn't final, yet. :)

This is STILL the best source of Photographic Information out there.. in or out of Texas.

[HutchPhoto]

Well I have not been to many workshops in 07 but did do 2 of them I was looking forward to 2008 for more workshops.. I use TPF 95% of the time I had a friend got me hooked on TPF and since quit going anywhere else. I do belong to 1 other forum "Canon" but I like seeing the workshop info from the small guys too I know MyKey was a small guy once and would love to take one of his but their are other people here that post all the time to HELP us understand how they did it I know it helps them get more interested in their workshop but still what drew me here on a daily basis!!

SORRY but 5 days is too short for me to clear my time to get ready to make a workshop!

I feel i will spend less time here looking for workshops and more on other forums to get the information i need so I can PLAN it in PLENTY of time. 5 Days This SUX for me.



Put up an Ad page...or something like it? for vendors and workshops..


I like this forum I love spending my time here listening to other photogs.


I do know MONEY drives us all and this site needs to stay running! Thats why I'm a Premium member...

[Norma_S]

Another viewpoint on the 5 Day restriction:

My current "day job" has me on-call on a rotating basis which, right now, is every week and weekend and soon will be alternating weeks and weekends. If I'm going to sign up (and pay) for a workshop, I'm sure gonna try to make dang sure I've made arrangements to NOT be on call during that time. Five days notice isn't much time to find out about something and scramble to find someone available to cover for me at that time and then still have time to sign up before it has filled up. Could maybe a two week restriction be considered instead?

I frequently go to seminars and workshops that I find out about right here. It would sure be a personal loss for me to have to pass on some of these events due to my stupid, @#$%'ing day job's enchroachment on my weekend time. I know that information about some of these national events is often found in newsletters and mailers, but, to be honest, I usually find out about them here rather than reading though all the snail mail and email I get. I guess if I had a more laid-back job, I'd have more inclination to sift through all that looking for these notices. But, to be honest, I'm stingy with my personal time and all too frequently leave it to fellow TPF members to spot and alert me to an upcoming gem they found out about.

Thanks, Abel, for your consideration of everyone's .02. You do a great job and I don't know of anyone else who would put so much time and energy into this labor of love that you call the TPF.

Norma

[nash]

Another consideration is that there are several nonprofit groups whose activities might be of interest to TPF members, if only listed briefly in a calendar, and might not be known to the larger community. For example, I am a member of ATPI (Association of Texas Photography Instructors) and SPE (Society for Photographic Education). Sometimes PPA chapters have not-for-profit activities, though they also bring in for-profit workshops and seminars. The Amon Carter Museum in Fort Worth and MFA-Houston often have lectures or shows of interest to the photography community, too. I would be happy to compile what I know. And if more people come to TPF for information, that should be a selling point to for-pay workshops who want to list here and be displayed more prominently.

[Junderwood]

Originally Posted by LoungeLizard

Abel, I think your rules are a move in the right direction.

Jeff, how do you know it's just "Joe Somebody" vs. someone who is being asked (or knows) the speaker and is just "pimping" the workshop?

There are many ways to find out about national workshops. Other forums where these national workshops advertise. Mailing lists such as RangeFinder's. Mailing lists from speakers.

While I post very little, I read this site a lot and have attended at least a couple of the workshops posted here. I have also attended other workshops that are not posted here. So here's another .02.

I am with LL and think Abel is moving in the right direction. IF knowing about national workshops or for that matter any other workshop IS important to any particular person, then there are plenty of ways to find out about them. Oh, perhaps that requires a little more effort on the part of the person wanting to attend, but IF if workshops are important to a person then it should be no big deal to put out the effort.

Case in point #1, I would like to attend one of Fran's workshops, so I emailed Fran and let her know and recieved a prompt reply. I bet I know about her next workshop before it gets posted on the forum. #2 I am planning on attending a Sante Fe workshop so I am on the mailing list and check the Sante Fe site. #3 I would like to attend a particular George DeWolfe seminar on Contemplative Photography so I check his web site keeping an eye out for one that will fit my location, schedule and budget.

Really not a lot of effort since these items are important to me.

Oh yes and by the way, the "national seminar" in question - I knew about it long before it was posted here and the ensuing ruckus. I also had the discount code as well.

Abel I appreciate all that you do and in particular keeping an eye out for the local working pros that do not have the ad budget of the "national" workshops, but have a lot to offer.

Joe

[wondershots]

Well, I gotta say that I attended two workshops last year that I found out about here on TPF. I'm not sure if they went through a "sponsorship" to announce the workshop but I do know that the workshops were rewarding for me. I also met another area photog at the first one and we've been working together ever since. I also know that their workshops were announced on another "Canon" focused forum but I like it here! I like the format, information, and the people.

I check this forum at least everyday and sometimes more. I don't want to have to go to the other forum(s) for information. I want it here. That's why I support the site with a premium membership.

Just my 2 cents.

[Junderwood]

Well reading this thread reminded to become a premium member. I have been meaning to so since I use the forum. That is now done and I can sling around the term "premium member" when trying to give validity and weight to my viewpoint.

I still have thought other than Abel should what is good for the Forum overall and not give in to the vocal minority.

[lscottpht]

Originally Posted by Junderwood

Well reading this thread reminded to become a premium member. I have been meaning to so since I use the forum. That is now done and I can sling around the term "premium member" when trying to give validity and weight to my viewpoint.

I still have thought other than Abel should what is good for the Forum overall and not give in to the vocal minority.

Well, some of us in the vocal minority have been members of this forum since almost the beginning. We all made it what it has become today, and I feel that our opinions, all of them, should count for something. Abel has been very good about hearing us out, and I believe he will do the correct thing, whatever that might be.

Being a premium member does not give us more of a voice, but it does show our support for the forum.

Just because you have the time to check out all the workshops all around the country, does not mean we all do or even know where to begin to find those. I, happen to know about Santa Fe workshops, but not everyone here might. Just because we simply ask if anyone is going to it or has any good or bad info on it, should not be a big deal. I have been in the industry a long time, but even I do not know about all the workshops happening around town. This forum has always been a good source of information for me, and I hope it continues to be. It's the only one I go to, and I simply don't have the time to seek out all the workshops happening in my area.

[R & J Photography]

Originally Posted by brad

Loana: that's my point exactly... you did nothing other that post something exciting you found and shared with other people you thought would feel the same way about.... and now you feel scolded. That's ridiculous.

I agree... I had actually posted the link in the Workshops thread ( since I thought that is where it should go and I wanted to share with all my TPF brothers and sisters) however it never got thru the Mods and approved so you guys didn't even hear about it til Loana posted hers...

[HutchPhoto]

Originally Posted by lscottpht

Well, some of us in the vocal minority have been members of this forum since almost the beginning. We all made it what it has become today, and I feel that our opinions, all of them, should count for something. Abel has been very good about hearing us out, and I believe he will do the correct thing, whatever that might be.

Being a premium member does not give us more of a voice, but it does show our support for the forum.

Just because you have the time to check out all the workshops all around the country, does not mean we all do or even know where to begin to find those. I, happen to know about Santa Fe workshops, but not everyone here might. Just because we simply ask if anyone is going to it or has any good or bad info on it, should not be a big deal. I have been in the industry a long time, but even I do not know about all the workshops happening around town. This forum has always been a good source of information for me, and I hope it continues to be. It's the only one I go to, and I simply don't have the time to seek out all the workshops happening in my area.

Well Said Leslie!!!!!!!!!!

Just because I don't like something doesn't mean nobody will. I just give my own personal feed back to Able site OWNER as to how it effects me personally and that way he knows their is one person that it effects and he can or can NOT do something for me about it.


I know on a forum that i was on unrelated to photography, Sponsors of the forum was allowed 2 ad post a month and could post unlimited to HELP or give Advise on any subject as long as they weren’t SELLING themselves or products. They had their own forum thread and that is where they made their Ad post . Made it ease to find.

And some company’s had their own forum page I know it cost them more but they did and had a banner of theirs on top of the page much like every page now. I would love to see something like this here but on their own page…..Say TriCoast could have their own page thread and PPA, Colleges, Simply Canvas, Ect Ect Ect…. That would make it better for ME to find, what I wanted to look for and read.. It would support the forum $$$ wise and those that visit..

I think it would be a Win WIN situation IMHO

[Abel]

Let me answer some questions and respond to some of the post that have been written in this thread... sheesh where do I begin.

Originally Posted by brad

Taking your rule to an extreme conclusion... will restrictions on discussing Canon cameras be next because Canon is not a sponsor... or worse, because Nikon *is* ? Or a liltle less extreme: We can't talk about B&H Photo or Adorama because Arlington Camera and HCE are paying sponsors and its not fair to them?

Brad... that is ridiculous... Why would you even say something like that?

We have a rule against commercial advertising here on TPF... plain and simple. If your business is not a sponsor which helps provide the forum with the funds to operate to begin with then you are not allowed to promote your company here. Companies that come here, create and accounts and then spam our forum with their own propaganda promoting their product and/or services are informed of our rules and are instructed to adhere to them.

Members can discuss other online companies such as "B&H and Adorama" all they want even though we have local stores as sponsors. I am not going to even comment on the restrictions for nikon/canon statement, thats absurd.. It is very unfair that you assume that is the line I will lead, I am truly offended by those remarks.

Representatives from those non sponsoring retailers do not have that same right as our members do in order to discuss their own companies in order for self promotion. One major company was recently banned because the representative felt our rules should not apply to them and continued to promote their business even after i instructed them not to.

Originally Posted by jeffkohn

I understand what you're trying to do, but also feel that there's a big difference between a forum member posting "Hey, I just heard about this workshop and though some of you might be interested", versus "Sign up for my workshop that I'm charging money for".

Unfortunately the 5-day rule means that by the time we hear about these national workshops, many of them will be sold out.

I am working on another program in order to make things more accommodating for everyone, even national events.

Originally Posted by brad

I think this rule sets a dangerous precedent... moving it away from a PHOTOGRAPHY FORUM and toward an ADVERTISING FORUM .. and as such, makes the information here not only less useful, but suspect... does this lead to an inability to talk about bad experiences with forum sponsors for fear of reprisals?

Brad, you must not venture into the sponsors sections very often. There are several threads from members that have voiced their displeasure about an experience with their product and/or services, they are always allowed on the forum without a “reprisal”. This will always be a photography based forum but are we not allowed to sell sponsorships in order to recoup some of the money that has been invested into the forum? It is very unfair to say that we cannot. Set aside all of the server/bandwidth/software/monthly forum bills, in the past month alone Lisa and I have spent well over $1,000 in prizes to be given away in TPF contests and events such our as the POY Contest & Christmas party etc. Why is it so evil and detrimental that we try to sell sponsorships in general in order to help recoup some of that? I don’t get it.

Originally Posted by LoungeLizard

I guess the point is that workshops and such are businesses. They should be willing to invest in their business.

Exactly right!

Workshops are not put together in order to just help the photography community become better photographers, please don’t be that naïve. If that was their main goal then every photography based workshop would be absolutely free of charge. As Jesus mentioned they are businesses just like any other profit oriented business out there. They have people to pay, expenses to reimburse and products to sell on top of that in order to make a buck off of their attendees. They invest money into advertising in form of print ads, mailers, handouts etc so listing on the forum is just another expense that needs to be factored in.

Originally Posted by brad

Well, I've made my position clear on it... and honestly, as a workshop giver, I don't expect this to dramatically impact my workshops since I already was kicking back to the forum in exchange for promoting here... and would continue to do so.

As Brad mentioned we had a very simple requirement instituted here on the forum in regards to Workshop Promotion by members. All we asked was that workshop organizers kick back $5 per TPF member that attends their workshop back to the forum as a form of donation/listing fee. This rule was completely based on the honor system which worked fine for awhile but led some organizers to not hold up their end of deal in regards to these kick backs. On various occasion, several months and several workshops later nothing was kicked back so in order to fix the problem we decided to change our policy and come up with another method. Hence the reason this entire new set of rules was devised.

Originally Posted by brad

Rather than eliminate those threads.. what if you gave the workshop givers who pay the ability to put their workshops in their signatures.. to list those workshops on the portal page.. to really get them in front of the users here rather than in some forum that no one notices unless they go look for it?

We allowed workshop listings in signatures in the past but what occurred is that it was abused. Meaning that organizers would make it a point to post EVERYWHERE in order to help get their signature displayed to as many users as possible. If legit posts were made it would not have been a problem but many posts were simple one liners just to get their workshop out there amongst the masses. In other words they were spamming their workshops which ended up doing more harm than good. Members were disgusted with the obvious spam tactic and often times reported it which led to their removal from signatures. Taking it one step further led us to created the dedicated section so that workshop promotions can only be done there within that dedicated section and not everywhere else on the forum.

Originally Posted by brad

The national ones that don't pay don't get that.. other than a brief mention in one thread... and limit it to one thread.. if more than one person mentions it, shut it down... Maybe even limit such threads to users with more than 200 posts.... to eliminate non-contributors from coming in and hawking their seminars for free......

As I mentioned earlier I am factoring in some of the suggestions offered up into our revised workshop policy. It should be complete soon.

Originally Posted by CaptainTom

Edit: I've changed my Avatar so it does not advertise my business any longer.

I understand your frustration and the statement you have made. I have received many complaints from people that had their signatures edited because they were promoting some other business that was being solicited to our members by way of their signatures. Their complaint was it was the same thing as members including “Joe Blow Photography” in the their signatures but that cannot be further from the truth. It is one thing to promote you own photography business which is completely ok here but it is an entirely different thing to advertise a business that is set on making a profit from our members.

If I recall your avatar was a promotion of your photography services business which is 100% ok to do…

Originally Posted by louis24x7

From this forum alone, I gathered a lot of information and learned a lot. And I do wish that new members will be able to learn as much as I did, by simply frequenting this forum. I thought this forum was great when I first found out about it and joined. It offered a lot of information, covering from how-tos, get-togethers, workshops, etc.

I think 5 days is not enough for two reasons (maybe more, but I can't think of others):
1. You won't always have enough time to gather the fund to attend the workshop
2. Even if you had the fund, It may already be sold out.

Rest assured that the solution in mind will make things much smoother. In fact it will be even better than it was before the announcement of the new rules.

Originally Posted by brad

Loana: that's my point exactly... you did nothing other that post something exciting you found and shared with other people you thought would feel the same way about.... and now you feel scolded. That's ridiculous.

Feel scolded? Brad, how could you know how she felt or what took place between our conversation? Scolded is a very harsh term and I feel you’re just trying to go to the extremes and really push your point. Your point has been made and there is no need to over exaggerate what you think another member felt judged by their posts. I feel “That's ridiculous.”

Originally Posted by nash

Maybe set up someplace where short notices can be posted of state events, just a list and maybe brief descriptions--and allow home page mention and discussion threads for those paying. Please don't squelch enthusiasm and sharing. I'm sure a creative solution can be found.

We will have a system similar to this in the next revision of our TPF Workshop Listing Policy… I am sure it will make everyone happy.

Originally Posted by carrbowl

I know it's tough Abel, and I think we all agree you do a great job...I think we just want to help you keep it great. I see both sides of the fence and I hope you are able to come up with a solution to keep both sides happy .....

Thank you for the kinds words Renae.. they are a welcomed read…

Originally Posted by HutchPhoto

SORRY but 5 days is too short for me to clear my time to get ready to make a workshop!

I feel i will spend less time here looking for workshops and more on other forums to get the information i need so I can PLAN it in PLENTY of time. 5 Days This SUX for me.

As I mentioned earlier the rule is being revised... no need to jump ship. As I asked please give me a couple of days to get it all ironed out.

Originally Posted by Junderwood

Well reading this thread reminded to become a premium member. I have been meaning to so since I use the forum. That is now done and I can sling around the term "premium member" when trying to give validity and weight to my viewpoint. I still have thought other than Abel should what is good for the Forum overall and not give in to the vocal minority.

I do thank you for becoming a Premium Member but slinging around the title doesn’t get you that far… hehee. You do get some cool added forum features though. Thanks again for your support Joe.

Originally Posted by lscottpht

Being a premium member does not give us more of a voice, but it does show our support for the forum.

True, I listen to all comments and posts equally no matter if you’re a premium member or not. All members are just as important as the next.


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Again… Thank you all that have taken the time to air your thoughts on the matter and offer up various solutions to make the set of rules better for the whole of the community. As I have mentioned the rules in the first of this thread are currently being revised and will not be in that current form once completed.

So rest assured that everything will be in place to make your forum experience enjoyable and you will still be able to get your workshop information fix. I feel that the new solution will make the forum much more useful than even before this thread announcing the new rules was created.

Stay tuned…

Ps. There is no more need to voice your strong opinions against the workshop rules since they are in fact null and void right now. Only doing that will prompt me to take time to respond to your arguments which keeps me away from formulating the new set of updated rules… In other words that’s not a good thing.

[brad]

You're perfectly right, Abel. Consider this a public apology for exaggerating my examples a little bit to make my point.