These Rules are Null and Void

[Abel]

Workshop Promotion Rules:

1. Workshop Sponsors
Only Workshops that have signed up to become Workshop Sponsors are allowed to be promoted here on the forum.

2. Workshop Threads
Approved workshops by Workshop Sponsors are only allowed to be posted within the dedicated Workshop Section located HERE.

3. No Workshop Spam
Workshop organizers are not allowed to promote their workshops in any other place other than the dedicated Workshop Section itself. The reason this dedicated section was created was to keep organizers from spamming our members in various threads throughout the forum.

4. No Workshop Spam in Signatures
Including information about your upcoming workshop in your signature and/or profile page in order to promote it outside the dedicated section is not allowed.

5. "Who is going..." Threads
Members wanting to post "Who is going to this Workshop?" type threads can only do so within 5 days of that workshop's actual occurance. All threads of this nature posted outside of that 5 day period will be removed and the thread starter will be notified as such.

6. Organizers Can Not Post ""Who is going..." Threads
Workshop organizers themselves can not create "Who is going to this Workshop?" type threads that promote their own workshop. This is only trying to circumvent signing up as a Workshop Sponsor to begin with and will be removed.

7. No Workshop Feeler Threads
Workshop feeler threads by members to try to gauge interest in whether or not people will attend are not allowed. Feeler threads are a form of workshop promotion without having to commit to a Workshop Sponsorship.

8. Workshop Definition
Any seminar, conference, class and/or other get together that requires a registration fee is deemed as a "Workshop" and shall also abide by these rules.



If you are a workshop organizer and are interested in signing up for our Workshop Sponsorship in order to list your Workshop on TPF you can contact me using This Form.

[Norma_S]

Can a "Who is going..." thread be started in one's city section in regards to a specific workshop so that one can find others in your area/city to carpool with? Oftentimes, those sorts of arrangements are made more than five days out from event if the event is far away.

Norma

[AndrewCCM]

Edit: Nevermind on my question. I am not a workshop kinda guy anyway..

[Abel]

Norma, Sorry but those wont be allowed outside of 5 days either.

Andrew, yes there is a fee involved. There has been a fee involved for well over a year now in regards to listing workshops.

These new rules are in place for several reasons:

To keep national workshop organizers from coming on the forum looking to promote/spam their seminar/workshops to our members since they may have 3-4 stops in the state of Texas.

Workshops that completely sell out because of our member base here on TPF but yet kick nothing back to the community that made it possible to sell it out in the first place.

It is unfair for those local workshop organizers that are listing with us for a fee to have other non listed workshops promoted on the forum by way of "Is anybody going..." threads hence the reason we've added stricter rules on them.

Workshops are commercial businesses so now we have rules in place to treat them as such.

This is indeed a very sensitive situation and has been very tough formulating a plan that is as fair as possible to everyone involved.

[AndrewCCM]

Totally understand Abel. Matter a fact, it has been a running joke within a small circle of friends about that very thing. We'll see a well known photog join out of the blue and put a timer on how long it will take before a workshop or something else is promoted.

Thanks for the info. You're doing a good job.

[brad]

I understand the need for some different rules... but sometimes this forum is the only place to find out about a "National" workshop... I would never have found out about the ones being talked about now without the TPF post... nor about the discount code that someone posted. I'd hate to see those go away.

[CaptainTom]

Originally Posted by brad

I understand the need for some different rules... but sometimes this forum is the only place to find out about a "National" workshop... I would never have found out about the ones being talked about now without the TPF post... nor about the discount code that someone posted. I'd hate to see those go away.

I agree ! It seems there could be a way or place to list these "events" without compromising the efforts of those who are paying.

[Abel]

So let the national workshops be posted well in advance for free and only charge the locals to do the same... not good.

Say a local organizer signs up for the sponsorship but yet there are 5 or so national events listed on the forum without the sponsorship, thats not fair for them. In other words they're being penalized for being a local and not having a national workshop platform.

Plus, if we do that then those national events would never see the need to sponsor the forum since they could get listed for free as it is.

National events can still be listed... just has to be within 5 days of their occurrence...

As I mentioned earlier... a lot of thought has been put into this current version of the rules and it is not an easy task to tackle.

[brad]

Yep.. no easy answer... and I don't know what suggestion to give for it... but the forum was started in order to share information and opportunities to learn (such as seminars). If that kind of information is not available here, that makes the forum slightly less useful.

I know you've probably considered lots of alternatives... even agonized over how to deal with it... and I am not helping by offering alternative suggestions (although I do have them)... I just wanted to point out the way this appears to me: You are preventing information about photography to be posted on your photography forum.

Taking your rule to an extreme conclusion... will restrictions on discussing Canon cameras be next because Canon is not a sponsor... or worse, because Nikon *is* ? Or a liltle less extreme: We can't talk about B&H Photo or Adorama because Arlington Camera and HCE are paying sponsors and its not fair to them?


Oh.. and please, do not take this as an unwillingness to "give back" on my part... I have tried to stay in the rules for workshop posting before and will sign up as a workshop sponsor now.... I just am worried about TPF no longer being my best source of information on things that may have escaped my notice otherwise... TPF is the only photo forum I spend any real amount of time on, because it is such a rich source of information.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Abel

National events can still be listed... just has to be within 5 days of their occurrence...

.....

I like the most of the new rules, but this one. A lot of the big national workshops sell out fast, way before 5 days until the event.
It would be nice to give the TPF members the heads up if a big name is coming to town. But I understand the local money is more important.

[jeffkohn]

I understand what you're trying to do, but also feel that there's a big difference between a forum member posting "Hey, I just heard about this workshop and though some of you might be interested", versus "Sign up for my workshop that I'm charging money for".

Unfortunately the 5-day rule means that by the time we hear about these national workshops, many of them will be sold out.

[LoungeLizard]

Abel, I think your rules are a move in the right direction.

Jeff, how do you know it's just "Joe Somebody" vs. someone who is being asked (or knows) the speaker and is just "pimping" the workshop?

There are many ways to find out about national workshops. Other forums where these national workshops advertise. Mailing lists such as RangeFinder's. Mailing lists from speakers.

[brad]

Jesus: I understand what you are saying... what I'm saying is that this forum is supposed to be for all things photography in our great state... and this rule means that I cannot depend on this forum to find out about all things photography in the state.. just about those that pay up.

I found out about Rangefinder on this forum... about various speakers' mailing lists on this forum... about equipment and places to buy that equipment on this forum... but this rule means if I were coming in new, I wouldn't be able to find out about these things anymore.. not here, anyway.

I think this rule sets a dangerous precedent... moving it away from a PHOTOGRAPHY FORUM and toward an ADVERTISING FORUM .. and as such, makes the information here not only less useful, but suspect... does this lead to an inability to talk about bad experiences with forum sponsors for fear of reprisals?

I understand the desire to make it fair to our sponsors.. to make it fair to the local workshop givers.. but to restrict dissemination of information on this forum based on whether or not the information owner has paid money to the forum is NOT "a move in the right direction."

[lscottpht]

Originally Posted by brad

Jesus: I understand what you are saying... what I'm saying is that this forum is supposed to be for all things photography in our great state... and this rule means that I cannot depend on this forum to find out about all things photography in the state.. just about those that pay up.

I found out about Rangefinder on this forum... about various speakers' mailing lists on this forum... about equipment and places to buy that equipment on this forum... but this rule means if I were coming in new, I wouldn't be able to find out about these things anymore.. not here, anyway.

I think this rule sets a dangerous precedent... moving it away from a PHOTOGRAPHY FORUM and toward an ADVERTISING FORUM .. and as such, makes the information here not only less useful, but suspect... does this lead to an inability to talk about bad experiences with forum sponsors for fear of reprisals?

I understand the desire to make it fair to our sponsors.. to make it fair to the local workshop givers.. but to restrict dissemination of information on this forum based on whether or not the information owner has paid money to the forum is NOT "a move in the right direction."

I completely agree with Brad on this one.

[LoungeLizard]

Brad, I'm not Abel nor do I pretend to even know what it takes to run a forum - from a time and financial investment.

I think that what Abel is putting forth is very similar to many other forums out there. There have been many instances of "anyone interested in a workshop on..." threads. Yes, if the person plays nice and later puts it on the forum AND they really adhere to the rules, Abel gets a small piece of it.

I guess the point is that workshops and such are businesses. They should be willing to invest in their business.

How do you do your advertising? How do clients find out about you? It costs you something. You're investing in that - so should the workshop people.

Those who post the "anyone interested in..." are pretty much guaranteed an audience - and advertising - at no cost to them.

I think it's about time that Abel comes up to par with what others are doing out there.

Of course, I'm not a workshop giver and the ones I look to attend I find out about through other means (i.e., I contact specific photographers I want to learn from and travel to where they are teaching.)