Thought on Markups and Pictures...

[Rson]

I'll preface by saying that I am a big Mpix/millers user.

Our good friend won a "Free" sitting etc. Seems that that cost was back loaded on the print pricing.

If you are going to jack the price of pictures please have the pictures sent to you and not the customer and put them in your own bag/box etc. What a crappy feeling to know that the same print you paid 7.00 for got sold to them for $0.30. We are all entitled to make some money, just keep it to yourself. I feel really bad for my friend that uses Mpix all the time and gets pictures in from the same company for 15-20 times the price.

Venting over......

*Edited for political correctness :)

[Jake]

I agree to have the pics sent to the photog first and then re-pack them.

But charging 15 times the cost of mpix doesn't sound that unreasonable to me for anything 11x14 or smaller.
Now 15 times the cost of a 20x30 sounds a little high.
How much mark up is normal?

[cmalana]

So the photographer didn't add any value to the paper and ink?

It's a little bit harsh to claim that your friend got 'raped' since I don't think anyone was forced to buy anything. I know you are venting but since when was the value of the raw materials ever a factor on what art is worth?

If your friend was happy with the pictures, who cares whether it was printed from Mpix or Miller?

I did check out your prices and I can see where you are coming from...but I'm curious if you make real profit from your photography (there is a difference for someone doing something as a hobby vs someone who uses photography as a viable source of income).

Jake- 15x the cost of a 20x30 doesn't sound high at all - depending on the quality of the image and the meaning of the content to the person purchasing :). Like I said above, the price of art has nothing to do with the cost of the raw materials used in its creation. The big assumption is that the buyer perceived it as art....

[AndrewCCM]

Ditto on everything Carlo says. The cost of a print to a customer has nothing to do with what the cost is from the printer itself. You are selling "your work"...whether it's in print, publication, electronic or whatever.

[AndrewCCM]

Also, back loading on print prices are nothing new. They got a free "SITTING". If they thought the prices were too high on prints, then they could have just given the sitting away or ignored it. I believe people new to this business are too used to 24 cent 4x6's from your chain store of choice...but not used to running an actual photography business. There is a change going on in the world of photography where anyone can go buy a DSLR, put up a $10 a month website and call themselves a professional wedding photographer. I am not knocking anyone for doing this...What I am saying...if you intend to do this as a serious business (ie, making a REAL profit based on material costs, taxes, consumables, utilities, equipment, repairs, etc...) then you either have to front load your fees from a session/package fee, or go the more traditional route of selling prints at a significant markup. There is nothing new about this business practice and it has been the norm for as long as the profession has been around.

Bottom-line IMO: The market is being watered down by what I call the "Cellphone Camera Generation". People that have grown up seeing 10s of thousands of images online and rarely have seen a print larger than 8x10 much less a fine art print on custom papers and nice framing. The ease of entrance into this field makes it more competitive. There will always be those that value the art of a great photographer and a great print (and be willing to pay for it). However, for most that do not set themselves apart...This line of business will (at best) be a weekend hobby that pays for a few nice gadgets.

Boy did I go off on a tangent. Heck now I am venting.. LOL

Sorry about that!

[Jake]

Originally Posted by cmalana

......
Jake- 15x the cost of a 20x30 doesn't sound high at all - depending on the quality of the image and the meaning of the content to the person purchasing ........

Excellent! That's what I wanted to hear.
Time to fix one of my prices........

[fran reisner]

Bravo to Carlo and Andrew for stating what should be obvious. I'm one of those old-timers who has watched this industry change a huge amount in the last 5 years or so. I completely agree with what you two have said. I've stated this on the forum before, but what so many seem to forget is to include their time as part of your cost of goods sold. I'm constantly AMAZED at the number of photographers I've met/mentored/consulted with who think that because they're marking things up a little bit, they're actually making money! They think they're doing great to pull in $500 for a wedding that took them 8 hours to shoot and another 20, 30, 40 hours.... to process! This of course while their spouse and children are sleeping (or worse yet... living life without them!) Yea... I'm ranting too! But think about it. Is this you???

The other point I have to make is this... I have no idea what studio offered this special, but if they are portrait photographers trying to market portraits of "value"... in particular working with a little more "upscale" clientele... they should never be shipping a "pile of prints" directly from the lab. What about quality control? What about packaging?? What about impressions??? I use Miller's (not Mpix, but the same lab really) and can count on great quality ALMOST every time, but that's not a guarantee. There's plenty for us all to learn from this story I think.

Thanks for letting ME vent!

Y'all enjoy your day!

[dfwlens]

Originally Posted by AndrewCCM

I believe people new to this business are too used to 24 cent 4x6's from your chain store of choice...!

From what Ive seen and heard, most middle-class people are...and its not going to get any better.

Frankly, I dont know many people who view portraits as art. They say, "We're going to the studio to get pictures taken."

Those that have the talent, vision, and ability to distinguish themselves with work that screams 'Art" will always be able to collect premium prices for their work from people that appreciate the difference.

For the masses, though, I will be surprised if the pricing pressures dont continue downward.

[Detonate]

Damn, I'm cheap bastard. I only mark up 50% over Mpix prices. I need to rethink my business model.....

[cmalana]

Originally Posted by Detonate

Damn, I'm cheap bastard. I only mark up 50% over Mpix prices. I need to rethink my business model.....

Yes Jim!

Think of how much you have to sell just to even break even with your depreciation costs (not to mention your time). That D2X....at a profit of 12 cents (50% mark-up on 24 cents)...somewhere over 20,000 prints.

[cmalana]

Originally Posted by dfwlens

From what Ive seen and heard, most middle-class people are...and its not going to get any better.

Frankly, I dont know many people who view portraits as art. They say, "We're going to the studio to get pictures taken."

Those that have the talent, vision, and ability to distinguish themselves with work that screams 'Art" will always be able to collect premium prices for their work from people that appreciate the difference.

For the masses, though, I will be surprised if the pricing pressures dont continue downward.

You may be surprised how many 'middle-class' people actually end up valuing portraits and images (ask Fran!). It is fairly common for clients to spend around the $1k level for Senior Portraits for example. Portrait photography has very good margins (better than weddings which tends to be viewed as a 'money' area but it really has more revenue vs profit when compared to portrait work) considering the time and effort spent on acquiring and processing the images.

I find that while a lot of people are happy with their ability to take pictures digitally (which is so easy to do now since digicams are so cheap), a group of people who take a lot of pictures also know what good pictures look like - and they know that it takes a level of expertise to create those images. Pros who don't create work that looks 'pro' will have a harder time succeeding because everyone now knows what a snapshot looks like.

[firebuffgal]

Originally Posted by fran reisner

they should never be shipping a "pile of prints" directly from the lab. What about quality control? What about packaging?? What about impressions??? I use Miller's (not Mpix, but the same lab really) and can count on great quality ALMOST every time, but that's not a guarantee. There's plenty for us all to learn from this story I think.

To me, quality control is a vital part of this or any business. I could not imagine sending prints directly from the print vendor to the client without my eyes setting on them. Even in my graphic design biz I know it's going to cost me twice for delivery, I have the product sent to me and then I deliver to the client.

You can't take a chance of a poor product because that will reflect poorly on you, not your print vendor!

As far as mark up, yes, you have to consider the time you are taking with that indiviudal, the processing, the ordering and if you do face to face deliveries. Your time should be compensated for.

[cmalana]

Originally Posted by firebuffgal

To me, quality control is a vital part of this or any business. I could not imagine sending prints directly from the print vendor to the client without my eyes setting on them. Even in my graphic design biz I know it's going to cost me twice for delivery, I have the product sent to me and then I deliver to the client.

I completely understand and for the larger prints, we prefer to see it first. However, for regular 5x7 or 8x10 orders (and even larger if the orders are not local), we don't have a problem trusting Exposure Manager.

[fran reisner]

Originally Posted by dfwlens

From what Ive seen and heard, most middle-class people are...and its not going to get any better.

Frankly, I dont know many people who view portraits as art. They say, "We're going to the studio to get pictures taken."

Those that have the talent, vision, and ability to distinguish themselves with work that screams 'Art" will always be able to collect premium prices for their work from people that appreciate the difference.

For the masses, though, I will be surprised if the pricing pressures dont continue downward.

This is a point I try so hard to stress in my teaching. You have got to find a way to set yourself apart in this industry if you hope to make a living at it. If you try to compete for the Kmart/KinderPhoto clientele you'll lose! Ain't no two ways about it. They are dealing with the masses, in such high volume that their COG sold is extremely low. There is no way to compete with that. Your other option is to create quality portraits that have great meaning to your clients, and therefor are more valuable (hint hint) to them as well.

[brad]

I typed a long rant to this last night, but it was late and it got lost... most others so far have touched on what I said, though.

Bottom line, we are not selling paper. We are selling our experience, our expertise, and our vision. My print prices are lower than this studio you mention, but that's because my session fees are higher (and include some prints). It sounds like this studio has a lower session fee to lure customers into the studio (and making it easy to "give" that away as a further promotion).. and then makes it up with higher print and delivery costs.

Unless someone but a gun to their head and made them buy the prints from the session, I highly resent the term "raped." High pressure sales, perhaps... not my own personal way of doing business, definitely... but "raped" is an insulting term.

Oh.. and on shipping directly to customers.. I recently did it twice, shipping from mpix, but only because they wanted images by Christmas and they live out of state now.