Nikon d70 or Canon 20d?

[mbroussard]

Just looking for a little advice for my friend who is driving me nuts trying to decide on which dSLR to purchase. We are both entering the dSLR world as amateurs - I personally own the Nikon d70 but he is torn between the d70 and the Canon 20d. We've been to a few camera shops and read tons of stuff online regarding each camera but here are the issues we're debating:

People keep telling us the Canon 20d kit lens is very bad whereas the Nikon kit lens is pretty good. He doesn't want to buy the 20d body and then have to buy an expensive lens to replace the kit lens. Key word = expensive.. the two salesguys we talked to today did not have any suggestions or pricing for a good substitute Canon lens so we're not even sure what price range a replacement lens would be in.
Suggestions??

He likes the 9 point focus on the Canon which the Nikon does not have. Is this a big deal to an amateur who is not shooting lots of sports, etc?
He also likes the 8 megapixels that the Canon offers.

His only investment with his existing camera equipment is an external Canon flash so he would have to buy the Nikon flash if he bought the d70.
The first salesguy was a Nikon nazi and talked about the Canon 20d having 'noise in the shadows'.. personally I have not read anything about that.

And finally, is it true that the Nikon lenses are a bit less expensive? Not talking about the professional lenses that cost thousands of dollars, just the middle-of-the-road stuff.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

-mbroussard

[gpgyo]

While I am a Canon guy personally, I don't believe that either Canon or Nikon is far away better than the other. There are professional photographers whose livelihood depend on their gear and there are probably as many Canon pros as there are Nikon pros.

If I were you and your friend, one thing I would consider is the cost of camera gear. There would be great value to both of you buying Nikon gear from the standpoint that you could share lenses and other equipment. Since you are both starting amateurs you probably consider photography a hobby so the amount you have to spend on gear is limited by how much money you are willing to spend on your hobby. If you're both using Nikon you have the potential to double what is available to you for what I spend on gear. I don't know if this would be a deciding factor but its something to consider. (Of course if one of you is more serious about this hobby than the other you could potentially have the "mooch" factor to consider down the road.)

Have fun,
Greg

[Hogleg 44]

From the DSLR standpoint, I started from scratch with Canon. I was very impresses by some Canon photos I saw posted on RailPictures.net by a guy who lived in PA near where my brother lives. He was very happy with his Canon and the photos it was giving him.
So I went with Canon and have never regretted it. I think Canon is obviously the DSLR leader at this point. While Canon company support definitely leaves some to be desired, I understand that Nikon support leaves a whole lot more to be desired! And it appears to me that Canon glass is considered superior to Nikon glass currently.
I would suggest you go into the various forums like dpreview, or Fred Miranda, or Rob Galbraith and monitor the Canon and Nikon forums and see what the members of each are complaining about.(Nobody posts unless they have problems, of course!)
That might give you some insite for your choice.

[Jim Victory]

If you are asking which is the better camera it is the 20D hands down. The D70 was desighned to compete with the 300D and it does a great job of it. The 20D is as close to a pro body you can get without spending 3x the money.

The guy in the store that told you that the 20D didn't do very well with noise in a shadows is an idiot. I assure you it will handle noise much better than a D70.

Jim

[markperez]

I can't tell you anything about the 20D but I think the d70 is great. It handles noise very well even at high ISO. And if your buddy got a d70 then you two could share lenses.

[mbroussard]

Thank you for the responses.. I agree with the 'sharing' of lenses.. that's a great idea and something we never thought about.

The reviews for both cameras are very good but it's been hard to find anything that said the Canon 20d was just an all-around better camera so I appreciate the comment from Jim.

So does anyone have suggestions or feedback regarding the 'kit' lens with the Canon? After talking to the salesguys today that became my friend's biggest issue with the 20d.. the added expense of buying a good lens to replace the one that comes with the Canon.. or do you think its adequate for an amateur?

Again, thanks for the feedback!

-mbroussard

[Hogleg 44]

Here ia an article on the $100 kit lens. http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/efs18-55/review/
If the quality of the lens is a concern, why not buy the body only and use the $100 saving towards a better starter lens. Perhaps the 28-105 f3.5 zoom. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...434&is=USA for about $230.
An excellent 50mmf1.8 is only $70. Each of you could buy different lenses and rotate them between yourselves.
I still really think you will be happier in time if you choose to go the Canon route.

[mbroussard]

Thanks for the links Paul. I purchased a d70 before Christmas so I'm just a bystander trying to help my friend make his decision.. but I will definitely give him those links.. that's a great one on the review of the kit lens. Also, I was trying to get a ballpark idea of a suitable lens to buy instead of the kit lens and the link you provided to bhphoto is very helpful.. it wouldn't be out of his budget to purchase that lens and the Canon body.

Thanks again!
mbroussard

[pwell]

Really you can't go wrong either way. I have Nikon and Canon stuff - a D Rebel and a D70 - and am looking to sell the D Rebel and maybe get the 20D. In my experience both companies make great lenses. Historically Nikon had a slight edge but morecently Canon has excelled with their IS lenses, with more assortment, and with their L lenses in general. Also Canon has the f/4 L lenses that are reasonably priced high quality optics (albeit a bit slower) that Nikon doesn't offer. With Nikon you generally have to pay for the fast lenses to get their best quality optics. You won't find much difference in image quality/noise - except the 20D extends ISO to 100 vs Nikons ISO 200. I've found the noise not to be a concern on either the D Rebel or the D70, and understand the 20D performs even better at the higher ISO's.

A couple of great features w/the 20D that make me want it - super fast handling, 5 fps, improved flash performance over the D Rebel, and a B&W mode with in-camera filter effects.

If one has the ca$h I'd suggest the 20D, otherwise the D70 is also great for less money. Lastly the DRebrl is probably best value because it gets you great image quality, and gets you into Canon lenses. Only drawback is it is a bit slower than the D70 and quite a bit slower than the 20D (if that's even a factor).

[Murph]

I've got the same issues, get the D70 or the 20D? I like the 8mp, but I really want Nikon optics. The standard lens that comes with the 20d seems "cheesy" to me, if I got it, it would be with the 17-85mm lens. But then I need to add a 75-300mm, and want to get the Epson 4990 scanner. Funds are limited, but both cameras are within my funding range.

I shoot mainly landscapes. Although lately, I have also done lots of the; "Smile for Grandma" type photos.

[Joe_Lorenzini]

Tough issue and it's refreshing to see the non-violent responses that would have resulted on other forums.

Couple of things to add:
- Nikon has confirmed a D50 and most Nikon users know that a D70s is on the way so you may take that into consideration and you'll see those announcements sometime in the next 60-90 days. This may impact your decision to buy or wait.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0504/05...nikondslrs.asp

- Both makers have a different "feel" to them. Consider which one you are most comfortable with, which manufacturer are you most comfortable with (you may say your ambivilant but you know there's you have a "feeling" about one of them). Go with your gut.

- Both cameras have their strengths and weaknesses, however slight. Consider what you will use it for (general use does not apply) and research which is stronger in that area.

If you want my personal opinion (as of today):
- D70 is a better value, especially when bundled with the kit lens
- 20D is a better camera

And don't fool yourself that you won't get more glass. All of us on this forum know how side-splitting that remark is. Lens Lust can not be stopped, only contained.

Best of luck with your choice,

_/oe

[jeffkohn]

Given the current D70 pricing/rebate, the D70 is a lot cheaper at about $920 with kit lens after rebate. I don't know exactly what the current pricing is on the 20D is but I know it's quite a bit more than that, and yes the D70 kit lens is better glass. I won't dispute the 20D is a better camera than the D70 (it should be for the price difference). Nikon doesn't really have an entry-level pro camera to compete in that segment right now, a lot of us are waiting for them to announce the D100 successor.

If your friend isn't willing to spend the money for a better lens to go with the 20D then I would say maybe the 20D is more camera than he needs. After all, bodies come and go, it's the glass that really matters and I personally would rather be shooting with a D70 and 18-70DX kit lens than a 20D with the 18-55 kit lens (but admittedly this is coming from a Nikon guy).

So my recommendation would be to get the D70 Kit, or the 20D plus another lens, like maybe the Sigma 18-50 2.8, or the Tamron 28-75, any one of a number of other lenses that are of better quality than the 18-55 kit lens.

[Abel]

Originally Posted by Joe_Lorenzini

Tough issue and it's refreshing to see the non-violent responses that would have resulted on other forums.

I completely agree with you joe on that matter. It is very refreshing.

Originally Posted by Joe_Lorenzini

And don't fool yourself that you won't get more glass. All of us on this forum know how side-splitting that remark is. Lens Lust can not be stopped, only contained.

Ain't that the truth!!!

I was torn between the 10d and the D70, i opted for the 10d for a few reasons. i like the optional vertical grip that canon offers, i knew plenty of canon users so informaiton was readily available, ive always seen those big bad white L lenses on the sidelines of major sporting events and envied them!

i agree, the kit lens on the 20d is subpar BUT its a lens, canon offers 50+ more others to choose from (all of which Jim Victory owns!! hehe jk). the kit lens on the d70 is VERY nice, and it would be nice to share the hobby with someone that owns the same camera. like it was said earlier, you guys can share and/or even rent lenses locally and both of you get your fair share use out of them etc...

its a tough decision but luckily he's not biased by what equipment he already has, this way he can make a decision solely on the camera body itself and not "well im gonna get a nikon because i already have a $200 nikon lens" etc

keep us informed on what camera he decides on.. either one he chooses, i know he will love it!

[LoungeLizard]

I have a friend who bought a D70 at about the same time I bought my DRebel. I considered the D70, but just couldn't convince myself the extra cost for the features was worth it - to start with.

I've played with her camera a few times and it is nice. The kit lens is much nicer than Canon's (build quality and range). The camera feels more sturdy than the DRebel (the 20D feels about the same as the D70 by the way).

I think you'll be happy with either one. They both produce excellent results. I've seen test results that say Canon photos are "softer" and "more underexposed" while I've seen others that say Nikon's are not as good. To me, they're both good enough.

On the lenses, Nikon offers some very good lenses and their top line lenses are available in black or white. I just bought my first "L" lens and to be quite honest, I wish it wasn't white. I'm a traditional type of person and lenses have always been black. Nikon gives you that choice, Canon does not - then again this is probably not important.

Whichever cameray you get, just go out and SHOOT a lot. I've read that the DRebel starts having problems after about 5-10K photos. If that's the case, I'll be replacing it about summer time (I got it in late November!)

[Texas Sadie]

My favorite site for comparing digital cameras is:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sidebyside.asp