Oil Spill Deal

[DSL_PWR]

all he will do is apologize to everyone for this. he is a worthless excuse for a.......

I will leave the rest out as it will get political..

[DEMDeepEllumMusic]

Well per the national news tonight BP is no longer trying to force mud into the pipe since they can't counter the pressure so the oil is flowing freely again. They are looking at trying to put the coffer-dam cap on it again.

[DigiSLR]

/sarcasm on

Without getting political... Maybe it's time we take over big oil. After all, we (I mean we the tax payers, in the form of government) took over banking, the auto industry, and health care, why not simply take over oil too?

/sarcasm off

I can't believe the price of oil hasn't already shot up like crazy due to Obama's latest ban's and moritoriums on off shore exploration and drilling...

[iCe]

Originally Posted by DigiSLR

Without getting political... Maybe it's time we take over big oil. After all, we (I mean we the tax payers, in the form of government) took over banking, the auto industry, and health care, why not somply take over oil too?

How is that not political?

[ronocnikral]

Originally Posted by iCe

One other thing... the oil spilling out in 5,000 foot deep of water is going to add a whole new dimension to the problem (no pun intended). If it were a tanker or two spilling out crude oil then it would start on top of the water, containment booms could be deployed, and while it would be a bad problem it would not have the potential to be as bad as it does now. Basically it was a jet of crude oil, natural gas, and natural gas liquids (think garden hose nozzle). Because of the way that it was released the likelihood of mixing is high (bad) and mid, lower, and bottom layer stratification likelihood is high (bad).

I am quite curious to know about this. I have always had the understanding that oil and water are highly immiscible and the density of oil is less than water 99 times out of 100. Are you saying that oil is a non-newtonian fluid? and the viscous effects from being non-newtonian would cause miscibility? or does a pressure drop at lower temp work as a catalyst for a chemical reaction between the 2? I'm uber curious and tres interested!

[texkam]

How is that not political?

It's not political unless you disagree, right?

[Texasdave]

Originally Posted by DigiSLR

Without getting political... Maybe it's time we take over big oil. After all, we (I mean we the tax payers, in the form of government) took over banking, the auto industry, and health care, why not somply take over oil too?

I am sure you are saying this sarcastically.

The statement of shutting drilling down for six months will be a huge blow to the economy in Louisiana and The Texas coast. Lots of the small service companies can not shut down for six months without going broke. Plus the owners of those drilling rigs are not going to let them set and wait on the government to let them start back to work. Heck they can move to West Africa, Brazil or somewhere the rigs are needed. If that happens they will not move back till they finish working where ever they go. So this could turn into a two year or better shutdown. But I am sure we all know who's fault this problem is. "Sarcastic" turned off.

[ronocnikral]

Originally Posted by Texasdave

I am sure you are saying this sarcastically.

The statement of shutting drilling down for six months will be a huge blow to the economy in Louisiana and The Texas coast. Lots of the small service companies can not shut down for six months without going broke. Plus the owners of those drilling rigs are not going to let them set and wait on the government to let them start back to work. Heck they can move to West Africa, Brazil or somewhere the rigs are needed. If that happens they will not move back till they finish working where ever they go. So this could turn into a two year or better shutdown. But I am sure we all know who's fault this problem is. "Sarcastic" turned off.

Actually, rigs aren't really "needed" in WA. Based on my research last Oct, there are almost 20 jack up rigs warm and cold stacked in WA. When it comes to semi and drillships, those are more in demand. but does the rig contractor want them there?

the federal gov't will also miss their 17.5%, although these effects will be delayed, they'll need the money at some point.

[DSL_PWR]

Originally Posted by DigiSLR

Without getting political... Maybe it's time we take over big oil. After all, we (I mean we the tax payers, in the form of government) took over banking, the auto industry, and health care, why not somply take over oil too?

I hope you are joking....

Look were banking is and see how the auto industry is taking a beating especially gov motors and dodge... Health care will be an eye opener when the bottom hits.

[iCe]

Hydrocarbons condense as you increase pressure. They condense as you lower temperature lower. Adiabatic expansion causes the gas stream to cool. We make use of an handy little thing called the Joule-Thomson effect, to extract liquids from natural gas. We also use a turbo expander to do work (which is an isentropic process) to increase the extraction amount. If you put the energy in the gas to work when you drop the pressure it gets colder and condenses more ngl's. The difference is roughly this- adiabatic non refrigerated expansion from 900 psig to 150 psig will take you from say 80° to... I don't know... 40°. Now take that same delta P and do work with it (compress gas, generate power, etc) and that 40° number is more like -40°. Those are rough numbers. The actual cooling amount is dependent on a lot of things (composition, work done, etc). Also- the typical inlet to a turbo expander is -20° to -40° and the outlet is -150° to -170° ish Side note- I'm not a big fan of wikipedia but it's cheap and easy to link to

In the case of the blown out well you have natural gas under high pressure (I've heard the reservoir is at 20,000 psi but that's an internet number so ymmv) venting through holes in the tubing into cold ocean water. The reservoir is deep and there is pressure loss as the gas comes up the tubing so at P1 (upstream of the hole in the pipe) the pressure isn't as high as 20,000. Block the pipe off and the pressure will rise to near reservoir pressure. That's why the top kill thing was so chancy. If they plugged it too high or two quickly the line could "pop" underground due to the high pressure. I don't know what a mile of water is equal to in pressure. Around 2,200 psig? Something like that. Delta P across the hole in the pipe is P1-P2 or P1-2,200-ish. Not knowing P1 and T1 makes it hard to calculate the temperature and the amount of liquid condensed in the natural gas stream. Impossible really. Gulf wells are not typically "oil wells". They are predominantly natural gas wells however I should add that the terms are interchangeable to some degree since you don't really have one without the other. That's why the term gas/oil ratio exists. Typically the gas part of the term is higher.

So... since I am rambling so much... it's not just oil. It's light hydrocarbons through heavy hydrocarbons being jetted and cooled into a cold ocean at relatively high pressure. One component of natural gas, propane, exists in a liquid state at 120° and around 250 psig. Mix it with heavier components and it will be a liquid at much, much lower pressure. 2,200 psig is more than enough to liquefy the bulk of the stream leaving the well at the temperature in the bottom of the ocean. I'm surprised more people haven't started asking "where's the oil" by now, because it's not showing up. They are making big noises about it but compared to the Valdez spill... we just aren't seeing the amount of oil that most people think they will see. That doesn't take away from what the folks in Louisiana are dealing with...

[ronocnikral]

Originally Posted by iCe

Hydrocarbons condense as you increase pressure. They condense as you lower temperature lower. Adiabatic expansion causes the gas stream to cool. We make use of an handy little thing called the Joule-Thomson effect, to extract liquids from natural gas. We also use a turbo expander to do work (which is an isentropic process) to increase the extraction amount. If you put the energy in the gas to work when you drop the pressure it gets colder and condenses more ngl's. The difference is roughly this- adiabatic non refrigerated expansion from 900 psig to 150 psig will take you from say 80° to... I don't know... 40°. Now take that same delta P and do work with it (compress gas, generate power, etc) and that 40° number is more like -40°. Those are rough numbers. The actual cooling amount is dependent on a lot of things (composition, work done, etc). Also- the typical inlet to a turbo expander is -20° to -40° and the outlet is -150° to -170° ish Side note- I'm not a big fan of wikipedia but it's cheap and easy to link to

In the case of the blown out well you have natural gas under high pressure (I've heard the reservoir is at 20,000 psi but that's an internet number so ymmv) venting through holes in the tubing into cold ocean water. The reservoir is deep and there is pressure loss as the gas comes up the tubing so at P1 (upstream of the hole in the pipe) the pressure isn't as high as 20,000. Block the pipe off and the pressure will rise to near reservoir pressure. That's why the top kill thing was so chancy. If they plugged it too high or two quickly the line could "pop" underground due to the high pressure. I don't know what a mile of water is equal to in pressure. Around 2,200 psig? Something like that. Delta P across the hole in the pipe is P1-P2 or P1-2,200-ish. Not knowing P1 and T1 makes it hard to calculate the temperature and the amount of liquid condensed in the natural gas stream. Impossible really. Gulf wells are not typically "oil wells". They are predominantly natural gas wells however I should add that the terms are interchangeable to some degree since you don't really have one without the other. That's why the term gas/oil ratio exists. Typically the gas part of the term is higher.

So... since I am rambling so much... it's not just oil. It's light hydrocarbons through heavy hydrocarbons being jetted and cooled into a cold ocean at relatively high pressure. One component of natural gas, propane, exists in a liquid state at 120° and around 250 psig. Mix it with heavier components and it will be a liquid at much, much lower pressure. 2,200 psig is more than enough to liquefy the bulk of the stream leaving the well at the temperature in the bottom of the ocean. I'm surprised more people haven't started asking "where's the oil" by now, because it's not showing up. They are making big noises about it but compared to the Valdez spill... we just aren't seeing the amount of oil that most people think they will see. That doesn't take away from what the folks in Louisiana are dealing with...

i still don't understand your argument...is it that some molecules of gas will exist in a different phase deep down? while this is all fine and dandy, are you suggesting that oil - with what would be gas at STP, is in the liquid phase for the environment - is more dense than water? or is in some way mixing with the water?

your original point was that there would be "Stratified" layers of hydrocarbon in the ocean. i still don't get why that would happen. unless there was mixing with the water. hydrocarbon existing in various phases is one thing, the density of that liquid phase is another. the more volatile ends will be lighter and therefore more prone to float to the surface.

i still don't get the stratified layer theory.

[iCe]

Originally Posted by ronocnikral

i still don't understand your argument...is it that some molecules of gas will exist in a different phase deep down? while this is all fine and dandy, are you suggesting that oil - with what would be gas at STP, is in the liquid phase for the environment - is more dense than water? or is in some way mixing with the water?

your original point was that there would be "Stratified" layers of hydrocarbon in the ocean. i still don't get why that would happen. unless there was mixing with the water. hydrocarbon existing in various phases is one thing, the density of that liquid phase is another. the more volatile ends will be lighter and therefore more prone to float to the surface.

i still don't get the stratified layer theory.

I'm not arguing I'm telling

If by STP you mean Standard Temperature and Pressure you might think about that. Conditions at 5,000' below sea level are a far cry from 14.696 and 60°F.

If you take them as a single component then I suppose the methane and ethane could rise. The reality is that they are more likely to form a hydrate due to the presence of water, pressure, and cold temperatures. A methane hydrate can form at 60° at less than the pressures that we are discussing. The stuff that people call "oil" has a relative density (in the gulf region) of around .85 at 14.696 and 60°F. As temperature decreases the density increases. Assuming that the Joule-Thomson effect works at the bottom of the ocean like it does everywhere else, which is a safe assumption, the stuff leaking out is very cold and very dense. I wouldn't say that it "mixes" with water. The hydrocarbons are saturated with water but at the pressures and temperatures we are discussing the hydrocarbon molecule doesn't have a lot of room for anything but itself.

The ocean stratifies... ever heard of a halocline? Why is it hard to believe that subcooled hydrocarbon liquid wouldn't also stratify. Eventually it should "gas off" as it rises in the water column and warms. If a hurricane passes through and agitates it then it's more likely to "gas off".

If you don't want to believe that it's possible that's cool. Where's the oil? Every piece of information that I've seen calls the visible oil a "sheen" or "areas of orange goo" (dispersant and oil) or tar balls. For a spill that's claimed to be multiples of the size of the Exxon Valdez spill that's not exactly evidence for it. The well is on the edge of the Florida Plain in 5,000' of water. A little under that actually. The depth drops to 10,000' in the area of the Florida Plain. If the density gradient is sufficient enough it's not inconceivable that the NGL's could flow down the canyons into the Florida Plain.

[DigiSLR]

Originally Posted by DSL_PWR

I hope you are joking....

Look were banking is and see how the auto industry is taking a beating especially gov motors and dodge... Health care will be an eye opener when the bottom hits.

Yes... Yes, I was joking! Without trying to piss anyone off, I am all FOR private industry and less government regulation.

Nothing else stated here... please move on.

I WAS JOKING...

[biggin]

I agree....

Originally Posted by texkam

A few thoughts.... People are P O'ed at the constant misinfo, covering up and downplaying of things at every step of the way by BP and to a certain extent by the administration. Both were slow to get a grasp and act on the problem. The administration has shown some lack of experience and leadership in the way they communicated to the American people. Way too trusting of BP's numbers and solutions. Slow to allow State and local government to take control of things. It would have been nice to see the President less in a photo op, I feel your pain, we're doing everything we can setting, but more in a strategic, war room, here's what we're doing and we are bringing in our own experts and equipment because BP is not being aggressive enough type of setting.

I am not sure I want the administration to do more less or what, honestly perhaps put the finical screws to BP to encourage them to do more. But even that, I am not sure is necessary, I think BP wants this done and get out of the spot light as quickly as people want it cleaned.

My issue is the way the media has handled the situation, but then again they are not really here for news but to tell the American people what to think.

I think like a lot of situations, it is a bad thing, at a bad time and people are generally unhappy wit the state of affairs, it is not really anyone’s fault, but our society is a blame first, fix it later kind of mood.

[iCe]

"It's not really anyone's fault"- Actually... it is... someone at some level made a bad decision otherwise there wouldn't have been a blowout and the BOP not functioning would be a non-issue.

The other thing to consider is that this isn't a "normal" situation. There really isn't an experience base for how to deal with this problem in the industry much less the government. The "string" is laying on the floor. It's around a mile long and it apparently is leaking in numerous locations.

The government "experts" don't exist. The experts are in the private sector. There is no government equipment. I think BP is being overly aggressive. They keep trying things that they know can't possibly work because of the tremendous pressure on them to fix what they screwed up. The screw up was easy... the fix is not easy... not by a long shot. The proven method of dealing with a blowout is the bottom kill. They've been drilling relief wells to do just that but it takes time.