If a pro is at an event..etiquette ??

[bcody]

I am not sure where to put this, so I hope this is OK. I was wondering if there is some kind of etiquette (that does not look right, hope it is spelled correctly!) about photographing an event that a professional is hired at? For example, I was at a dog show a while back and there was a show photographer, they had a contract with the people putting on the show and had to pay a vendors fee for the priviledge of being the only potog there. BUT, I noticed outide the ring another photographer taking pictures with a nice set up. After I got out of the ring I wandered by and he was giving out cards and posting the pics for sale on his website. This seemed a little off to me, although his pictures were MUCH better then the pro in the ring.

On another note I was at a horse show and saw the pro chew out what looked like a parent taking pictures of her kid, because he was the photographer for the show.

So, if you go to an event and there is a professional photographer for the event, is there any rules, written or otherwise, about who can take pictures (other pros, ammy or family) and if they have the right (if they are a pro) to sell the photos?

I hope this makes sense.

[Dobick]

personally having been on both sides of this fence (being both a spectator at an event with a sponsored photog, and having been the official photog at a few events as well) it always seemed that the onus for etiquette was on the official photog. That said it should be up to the event organizers to enforce the exclusivity. As the organizers of an event, they would have the right to ask someone to not take photos, as well as ask them to leave the private event should they decide to not comply.

Nothing good will come of the photog having to do the enforcement of the agreement, and only serves to make the photographer look like the bad guy. If I paid a vendor fee to be the only photographer at a show, then you can bet I would be expecting the show organizers to do what I paid them for and keep me the only photographer at the event.

[bcody]

Thanks for the reply, does it matter if the event is held at a public place, say a fairground (like the dog show was)? If it is a public wouldn't anyone have the right to photograph, just maybe not sell? Not that that could really be enforced. I know I have taken pictures of my friends when they are in the ring and I am not, but I was not paid, does that matter?

I agree that if the pro had to pay a vendor fee, there should be a way for the organizers to enforce the rule. But, if my kid is riding, shouldn't I be able to take her picture?

Another senario, what if the pro will only take photos of people who give him a deposit? (Yes, this is being done at a lot of regional and national horse shows) Does it change anything? Don't worry, I am not going to any big name show with my kid or my dog, but maybe someday........

[Dobick]

Originally Posted by bcody

Thanks for the reply, does it matter if the event is held at a public place, say a fairground (like the dog show was)? If it is a public wouldn't anyone have the right to photograph, just maybe not sell? Not that that could really be enforced. I know I have taken pictures of my friends when they are in the ring and I am not, but I was not paid, does that matter?

I agree that if the pro had to pay a vendor fee, there should be a way for the organizers to enforce the rule. But, if my kid is riding, shouldn't I be able to take her picture?

Another senario, what if the pro will only take photos of people who give him a deposit? (Yes, this is being done at a lot of regional and national horse shows) Does it change anything? Don't worry, I am not going to any big name show with my kid or my dog, but maybe someday........

I don't know of any "public" place that events are being held. You mention a fairground, but that really isn't public in the sense that I am speaking of here. It is a private venue, which usually has a gate to enter through, and most of the time people buy tickets etc. as well as if you were creating a ruckus you would quickly be thrown out of that "public" venue.

Short answer to your question about your kid. If the photog has an agreement to be exclusive, then no you shouldn't be able to take her picture if the event organizers don't want you to. You can always go to the event organizers and ask if it is ok if you take photos of your kid.

My personal feeling about the whole exclusivity would be that exclusivity would give me exclusive right to access. If parents want to take photos from the stands, have at it, I'll get the shots from the floor that the parents can't get.

As far as your second scenario of the photog not taking photos unless a deposit is paid just seems a bit shady and underhanded. At that point as a parent, I think I would bring this to the managements attention, as that seems counter to good coverage of the event. Secondly (only when presented with a situation like this) I would look for a newspaper guy that I could get photos from.

[CaptainTom]

I'd just like to interject that many times what may appear as a "public place" is indeed a private venue.
Many people think a shopping mall is a public place, it's not.
A fair ground is likely operated by a private corporation who has the right of entry and regulations as long as they follow the local ordinances.

If someone has a contract for exclusive right to photograph an event, the organizer of the event should bear the responsibility to enforce the rule.

If you go somewhere and there is an "official" photographer the best advice I can give would be to approach that photographer, explain what you want to do and see what the response is. Most of the time you will be encouraged to go ahead with some possible restrictions or even given special access.
If the photographer acts like a jerk and gives you a hard time, you could then go to the event organizer and see what their response is.
At most events, the organizer has the right to limit photography, and also has the power to override the photographers restrictions.

Be nice and you will likely be treated well.

[groovyone]

Originally Posted by CaptainTom

If you go somewhere and there is an "official" photographer the best advice I can give would be to approach that photographer, explain what you want to do and see what the response is. Most of the time you will be encouraged to go ahead with some possible restrictions or even given special access.

Be nice and you will likely be treated well.

I did this at a friend's wedding. I made sure to speak with the hired photographer and explain what I was doing and that I wanted to be certain not to impede his work in any way. I let him know that I would stay out of his shot path, and just out of the shot in general, and would only use a flash (at the reception only) if he was not actively shooting. He was very nice about it and joked with me some during the reception. I'd imagine the same applies to most any event.

[Dobick]

Originally Posted by CaptainTom

I'd just like to interject that many times what may appear as a "public place" is indeed a private venue.
Many people think a shopping mall is a public place, it's not.
A fair ground is likely operated by a private corporation who has the right of entry and regulations as long as they follow the local ordinances.

If someone has a contract for exclusive right to photograph an event, the organizer of the event should bear the responsibility to enforce the rule.

If you go somewhere and there is an "official" photographer the best advice I can give would be to approach that photographer, explain what you want to do and see what the response is. Most of the time you will be encouraged to go ahead with some possible restrictions or even given special access.
If the photographer acts like a jerk and gives you a hard time, you could then go to the event organizer and see what their response is.
At most events, the organizer has the right to limit photography, and also has the power to override the photographers restrictions.

Be nice and you will likely be treated well.

Said much more succinctly and to the point than I did.

The last line is key all the way around -- play nice and it's amazing how unrestricted this world can be

[utdbear]

Agree with above...

On the kids part, if you're part of the organization, more than likely you'll be able to take pics of your kids without hassle. Don't get in the organization's photog's way, and you probably could shoot the whole event. The last thing a pro photog who's counting on print sales wants to do is lose a potential customer at an event.

[doctahjones]

if i'm the 'outside' i usually try to talk to the photog and tell him what i'm doing and then stay out of his/her way, and out of their shots (unless you're stationary like in a certain seat). i've found most photogs don't care as long as you're not interferring with them getting their shots.

i haven't been on the other side of the fence often enough for it to be a problem. the few times the "p&s dslr photogs" have gotten in the way i just worked around them as it wasn't worth the time to explain what's going on and they probably wouldn't have understood anyway.

[wclavey]

My son was a member of Team USA in figure skating. At the events he competed in, there were usually a range of arrangements and they were usually a combination of the venue's rules and the sponsoring organization's rules.

Almost always, whatever the rules were for spectators, they would not have access to the ice or to the parts of the competition area (kiss & cry, scoring, judging, warm-up, etc.) that the official USFSA photographer or the credentialed press had. The rules for the "spectators" came in 2 flavors: (1) the "regular arena rules" (e.g., no lenses longer than 4 inches, nothing that looks professional, etc. - - all the things that we generally get upset about because they mean nothing in reality); or (2) anything goes as long as you did not use a flash and did not touch or hang over the boards. Over the time he was competitive, we saw the rules shift away from #2 and towards #1.

If the venue did not prohibit it, you often saw an individual professional photographer shooting from the stands (multiple bodies, laptop, someone taking orders, etc.) and he or she often knew the official photographer - - I knew many of them, since we all saw each other several times a year. There was a cordial relationship and I even know of instances where the official pro would refer people to the pro in the stands where that person was better positioned for some specific trick or was better for some other specific reason.

I would agree with Kent... be polite, work within the bounds set by the sponsoring organization, and you would be surprised how much access you can get. For many of the nationally organized federations, there will be a rules packet developed 4-6 months before the event that generally specifies their position on photography and videography and includes the relevant pages from the venue's materials on the same topics.

The venues are another story and as they got stricter, we found it harder to bring in even consumer level equipment over time. I shot MF and even my normal 80mm lens (or the look of the whole camera) was often bigger than the lens they would allow... and if you can't get it past the front door, being cordial with the sponsoring organizations didn't help much.

[bcody]

Thanks all. I guess I never put much thought into those 'public places', but you guys are right, as usual. So far my kids are not in any level that usually has a pro there, but hey, who knows right? On a side note, a friend was at a big hunter/jumper show in NY recently, and the pro was charging people to see the proofs. His reasoning was (remember, second hand from a disgruntled customer) that he needed to make his money and too many people were steeling the proofs and putting them on facebook and not purchasing.) Interesting and sad. I guess the money from the look went towards any purchase, no purchase you were out the $$.

[iCe]

I shot a friend of mines son's graduation ceremony. The pro that was hired to do the grad pics came by and we talked. Once I explained that I was there for one person he was more relaxed though he never seemed upset. I asked where he was going to be so I could stay out of his way and explained that I didn't want any part of his business. You know what he did when it came time for me to shoot my subject? He held him up about twice as long as he did the rest. Later he asked if I had noticed and wondered if I was able to get a decent shot. That was a class act imho.

[Digigeek]

We just returned from a vacation in the BVI. The resort has a pro on site that shoots the guests on boats and in the water. When my kids took windsurfing lessons, he was out there shooting them. He saw me come up in a dinghy with my camera, and left a few minutes later. I talked to him later and he said he did not want to get in the way of people with "private" photographers! I explained that they were my kids and his response was essentially "cool". His polite accomodation led me to buy several images from him from other things we were doing. Had he taken the "I'm the resort photographer" approach, I would have shot my kids anyway and not spent a dime with him.

I wouldn't go out and shoot others and compete for his business though.

[DSL_PWR]

I recently dealt with a similar situation at a private school graduation. Was interesting.

[janikphoto]

Many of these events require a ticket to get in and are not "public" in the "walking down the street" aspect of the word. Just like many concerts and performances, the production company can request that no photos or video be taken. The rogue pro shooter at the dog event should've been ejected. However, I would never ask a parent with a camera to stop shooting, unless they were getting in the way of the pro that was hired or contracted to shoot the event.

I shoot an annual event for one of the suburban cities in North Texas. I have to pay a vendors fee, but I am guaranteed to be the only pro photog there. I still let parents take pics, even on my backdrop; but, I would be furious if another pro just decided to crash the event and start shooting.