#1 No-College-Needed Job

[vr666m]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

I think that college is a scam, the way it is marketed and packaged. As the article points out, some occupations necessarily require a college education; the job simply cannot be learned any other way available today. But, college is promoted as a cure-all for all employment and income needs, as if every job needs a college education, or as if a market actually exists for all the college graduates that could come through college. More often what happens is, people spend tens of thousands of dollars on an education that is of no use to them and will never be used by them. Despite this fact, the cost of college rises much faster than the inflation rate, meaning that a unit of education is less cost effective every year.

My Mom had a Bachelor's Degree in Education, majoring in math and science. We lived below the poverty line for much of my childhood. I earned an AAS degree in Laser Electro-Optic Technology in 1992; I've worked as a laser tech for about 3 months. Even when I was earning my degree, the program directors said that most laser technician graduates would find employment as electronics technicians or instrumentation technicians, rather than as laser technicians. We had to cover a broad range of academic topics because the market for our degree wasn't strong enough by itself.

I disagree.
College means University.
It is the study of everything Mankind has created up till today, whether there is a job market for it or not. It is necessary for improving all aspects of arts/science/history/math etc of the human race.

A degree and GPA is one of the few tangible things that enables a future employer to gauge your ability to learn. Doesn't matter if what's studied in school is not exactly the same as the job market, but it is the ability to learn that is important to employers.

Colleges are a business too, so they have to promote their courses, just like anything else to make money.

Most normal people actually do a research on their career paths before they spend thousands of dollars on a degree. You don't realize your laser degree is enough for what you ultimately want to be after you graduate.

Not knocking on your mum's degree, it's good to have a degree no matter what, but you don't get rich with a degree in education. Who does?
It's not a technical degree. Majoring in science and math is as general as it get. Losing out to a Math degree, and losing out to a Biologist in the job market.

I thought only people who takes an education degree today are NFL prospects

[Zack Davis]

I think school is important but has it's downsides.

I.E.: YouTube - Sir Ken Robinson: Do schools kill creativity?

[tukaniray]

Now what if you do Video and Photography ... does that up your value?

They didn't put down freelance video guys.

I'd like to know what the Nuclear reactor guy does. Homer must have been banking.

-Ray-

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by vr666m

I disagree.
College means University.

No it doesn't, but that isn't important.

Originally Posted by vr666m

It is the study of everything Mankind has created up till today,

No institution, no university, college or school and certainly no individual studies everything that mankind has created up until today.

Originally Posted by vr666m

whether there is a job market for it or not.

If that were what a university education were about, all the students would have the same curriculum. Instead, most of the students specialize within narrow fields. My general studies designation is about as universal as college gets, but it only covers US government and history, some math, a few physical sciences, some art and a little bit of language and some physical education.

Originally Posted by vr666m

It is necessary for improving all aspects of arts/science/history/math etc of the human race.

Universities touch only a very small amount of those fields of study, and mostly in a preparatory role. So, again, university is about preparation for work in a field, and the question is, how effective is it at doing this?

Originally Posted by vr666m

A degree and GPA is one of the few tangible things that enables a future employer to gauge your ability to learn. Doesn't matter if what's studied in school is not exactly the same as the job market, but it is the ability to learn that is important to employers.

If that were true, employers wouldn't be filtering applicants by major, as any major would be evidence of ability to learn.

No, what you are saying is simply the propaganda that floats around society to justify the importance placed on a college education. It isn't true.

Originally Posted by vr666m

Colleges are a business too, so they have to promote their courses, just like anything else to make money.

Oddly enough, colleges aren't closely regulated by market forces, that is, price based on a demonstrated suitability of the product for the intended purpose. Instead, universities essentially tell folks that their cameras are expensive, so we should pay them more to have a photo from them. Most of the expense is subsidized by the government, so costs have gone into run-away mode.

Originally Posted by vr666m

Most normal people actually do a research on their career paths before they spend thousands of dollars on a degree.

They still end up spending thousands of dollars on classes that do no good for them, simply because the schools require it.

Originally Posted by vr666m

You don't realize your laser degree is enough for what you ultimately want to be after you graduate.

I'm trying to parse your sentence, but your statement does not appear to be related to this conversation.

What I wanted to be after graduation was a laser tech. When the first class from my college's laser program graduated, a company in California hired the entire class and flew them to California in a chartered jet. The local state university had its laser program, too. About the time that I graduated, the state university eliminated the laser degree from their curriculum. My college dropped the degree a few years later. The market for laser techs virtually died, went away. The people who got those jobs are low-paid workers who did NOT get a college degree.

Originally Posted by vr666m

Not knocking on your mum's degree, it's good to have a degree no matter what, but you don't get rich with a degree in education. Who does?

So, you admit that a college education is not the road to financial success.

Originally Posted by vr666m

It's not a technical degree. Majoring in science and math is as general as it get. Losing out to a Math degree, and losing out to a Biologist in the job market.

The bolded part in your statement is not a sentence, and I do not understand what you are trying to convey.

Originally Posted by vr666m

I thought only people who takes an education degree today are NFL prospects

I would suppose that virtually all teachers and school administrators would have an education degree.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by crackhead

When you really drill down to it, the whole point of going to college is to showcase your abilities to the gatekeepers who can point you down the road to further opportunity,

That might be true, if the gatekeepers had a clue what you did in college. But, they don't.

My last employer didn't even know that I had a college degree until I had been there for almost 10 years. It made no difference to them.

Originally Posted by crackhead

and to network and establish connections in your field of study.

Inasmuch as these connections are only hypothetical and are largely unknown, the would-be applicant is flying blindly in applying to a college, if this is what he hopes to get.

Originally Posted by crackhead

The book learning aspect is important but is by no means the most important.

Learning the profession is the goal. A university or college either teaches the profession or it fails. But, so many people try to justify college education on other reasons than learning the profession.

[HotHolly]

Maybe I didnt eat my Coca Krispies before I posted this, but I thought their numbers where whack. At least they dont jive with the last PPA numbers I saw. Or the US Handbook of Jobs & Salaries.

As for college - its gotten to the point that the expense cannot not be repaid by the degree being earned. You have a valid point there. Its not a cure-all. And it doesnt teach students how to have their own business. It teaches them how to be someone's employee. Yeah, whoops. We bad. Thats been in the press lately.

Wasnt slamming the no-college crowd. Just thought it was part of the crap that flooded the market with promises of if you buy it (dslr starter kit), they will come...and you'll get $50K. ooooh aaaaah.

[photonewb]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

Ridiculous article from top to bottom. Nuclear Power Reactor Operator is on the list, too.

yes it is...do you know why?

A large majority of the civilian sector of Nuclear Power is filled with ex Navy operators. You can join the Navy at 18, go into their Nuclear Power pipeline, and get out at the age of 24 with more "college" training, and 4 years of actual hands on operating experience than someone who actually went to school for 4 years to study Nuclear Power.

The Navy's Nuclear Power pipeline is no joke. I did it. Just one of their "6 month" schools is actually 40 hours a week working in a class room setting studying all the math, science, chemistry etc etc, and then you're expected to log in an additional 40-80 hours of study time on your own each week. For that 6 months most students literally live in the classroom and spend all their waking hours involved in studying. After you graduate that school you go to another school where you spend the first 3 months in a class room doing 12 hour days, followed by 3 months on a rotating shift schedule where you spend 12 hour days on board a working reactor training vessel. In a "short" 2 year time you're trained and trusted to operate a Nuclear Reactor on board a submarine or air craft carrier. And no, you never had to step foot on a college campus. And when you get out, if you choose to do so, you can find yourself in line for jobs at various nuclear power facilities around the country, or jobs with Intel or numerous other companies seeking highly trained and trainable individuals.

[crackhead]

Wow, no offense, but you sound like an extremely embittered person. Hope I never have to meet you in real life!

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

That might be true, if the gatekeepers had a clue what you did in college. But, they don't.

My last employer didn't even know that I had a college degree until I had been there for almost 10 years. It made no difference to them.



Inasmuch as these connections are only hypothetical and are largely unknown, the would-be applicant is flying blindly in applying to a college, if this is what he hopes to get.



Learning the profession is the goal. A university or college either teaches the profession or it fails. But, so many people try to justify college education on other reasons than learning the profession.

[brewercm]

I just love the way students and the colleges complain about the high cost of education. I suppose that would be like the "Big Oil" companies complaining about the high cost of oil.

I'm just waiting for the government to take on "Big School".

[TxLerman]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

I think that college is a scam, the way it is marketed and packaged. As the article points out, some occupations necessarily require a college education; the job simply cannot be learned any other way available today. But, college is promoted as a cure-all for all employment and income needs, as if every job needs a college education, or as if a market actually exists for all the college graduates that could come through college. More often what happens is, people spend tens of thousands of dollars on an education that is of no use to them and will never be used by them. Despite this fact, the cost of college rises much faster than the inflation rate, meaning that a unit of education is less cost effective every year.

My Mom had a Bachelor's Degree in Education, majoring in math and science. We lived below the poverty line for much of my childhood. I earned an AAS degree in Laser Electro-Optic Technology in 1992; I've worked as a laser tech for about 3 months. Even when I was earning my degree, the program directors said that most laser technician graduates would find employment as electronics technicians or instrumentation technicians, rather than as laser technicians. We had to cover a broad range of academic topics because the market for our degree wasn't strong enough by itself.

I completely disagree with you. A college education does not provide any guarantees. How much value you derive from a college education depends on several factors: the value in the market place for people with those skills and a person's performance in that field. Every person has complete control over (1) the choice of education major and (2) their performance. Higher education provides a means for people to enchance their skills and make them more marketable in a competitive labor force.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by TxLerman

I completely disagree with you. A college education does not provide any guarantees. How much value you derive from a college education depends on several factors: the value in the market place for people with those skills and a person's performance in that field. Every person has complete control over (1) the choice of education major and (2) their performance. Higher education provides a means for people to enchance their skills and make them more marketable in a competitive labor force.

Of course college offers no guarantees; it *does*, however, offer promises. When someone says, "College is the road to a higher-paying career," that's an implied promise. It's advertising spiel, intended to encourage people to go to college. And, then someone comes up with some numbers that supposedly justify the statement, even though it is just as easy to come up with numbers that refute it.

Again, the marketplace does not care about the value of your degree, and is determined not to pay you the value of your degree. The marketplace is determined to do the minimum job at the minimum price that it can, and that does not mean paying graduates the full value of their education.

Twenty-five years ago, the general agreement in the news media was that the U.S. would need so many thousands of computer techs by the Year 2000. Twenty years ago, the general agreement in the news media and professional journals was that the U.S. would need so many thousands of engineers. But, what happened over those years was that 1) Employers would not hire as many engineers as they knew they needed, never mind how many an independent firm decided they needed; 2) Employers lobbied the government to allow more engineering work to be handled by people overseas, where the cost of employing these people was 1/3 the cost of employing someone domestically; 3) Employers encouraged as many graduates in technical professions as possible, to saturate the job market, driving down costs. The promise is always held out that abundant, high-paying jobs will be available in such-and-such a career field, but the reality is, people are being played as pawns in the big business game.

Even today, one can find claims that such-and-such a career is going to face a shortage of workers, that these are high-paying, quality jobs. Nursing is one that springs to mind. Supposedly, the demand for nurses is going to spike, as the nation ages. Based on past experience, I can predict that this won't be a great career opportunity for the majority of people. One possible way to crumble this cookie is to start a major training program for low-paid foreigners to go into Nursing. Can you name a convenient, low-paid, large group of foreigners who could easily enter this country and do heavy manual labor?

I often hear, "It's not what you know; it's who you know." Now, how could that be true if college were the road to economic success?

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by crackhead

Wow, no offense, but you sound like an extremely embittered person.

Why would I be bitter? Aren't I living the American Dream?

Originally Posted by crackhead

Hope I never have to meet you in real life!

Why would that be offensive?

[TxLerman]

Your comments make little sense:

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

Of course college offers no guarantees; it *does*, however, offer promises. When someone says, "College is the road to a higher-paying career," that's an implied promise. It's advertising spiel, intended to encourage people to go to college.

Did you sign a binding contract with this promise as part of the terms and conditions? You sound like someone with sour grapes. My point of my previous comment and this one is that people can choose their education and choose how they perform at their position. People need to do their homework on market value and make wise choices. It is completely in the individual's control. No one made your mom get a degree in education and no one made you get an associates in laser technology. You and your mom chose.

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

Again, the marketplace does not care about the value of your degree, and is determined not to pay you the value of your degree. The marketplace is determined to do the minimum job at the minimum price that it can, and that does not mean paying graduates the full value of their education.

You make the marketplace sound like an evil place. It is merely a place where buyers and sellers come together and transact. The Market determines what it is willing pay for people with specific skills based on supply and demand of people with those skills, not what an individual paid for their education.

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

Twenty-five years ago, the general agreement in the news media was that the U.S. would need so many thousands of computer techs by the Year 2000. Twenty years ago, the general agreement in the news media and professional journals was that the U.S. would need so many thousands of engineers.

The problem I always have with forecasts is that they are never right. Name one forecast that can accurately predict 25 years into the future. However, you have the ability to monitor the market and adapt your career accordingly to changes in the market. You have complete control.

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

But, what happened over those years was that 1) Employers would not hire as many engineers as they knew they needed, never mind how many an independent firm decided they needed; 2) Employers lobbied the government to allow more engineering work to be handled by people overseas, where the cost of employing these people was 1/3 the cost of employing someone domestically; 3) Employers encouraged as many graduates in technical professions as possible, to saturate the job market, driving down costs. The promise is always held out that abundant, high-paying jobs will be available in such-and-such a career field, but the reality is, people are being played as pawns in the big business game.

Regarding #1 and #2 in your comment, that is where reality and forecasts diverge and this is normal. So? Your #3 sounds like a grand evil conspiracy from a sci-fi movie like the MATRIX. If you want a high-paying position, research what those positions have those salaries and get the appropriate training to enter those labor markets. Don't complain about not being paid like a rock star if you can't carry a tune.

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

Even today, one can find claims that such-and-such a career is going to face a shortage of workers, that these are high-paying, quality jobs. Nursing is one that springs to mind. Supposedly, the demand for nurses is going to spike, as the nation ages. Based on past experience, I can predict that this won't be a great career opportunity for the majority of people.

There is a shortage of nurses right now and starting salaries have been rising for those positions. That is the market in action. You predict it will be a failure, but you have not demonstrated that you can predict better than anyone else. Will it be a failure next year, next decade? What will be the source of the failure?

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

I often hear, "It's not what you know; it's who you know." Now, how could that be true if college were the road to economic success?

College gives you the skills to perform a job and is one of the keys to success, but it is not the whole story. Being personable and playing well with others is a necessity in todays market place and this is a skill that cannot be taught in school. Also, how well you market yourself also determines your value in a competitive market place.

At the end of the day, it is up to YOU!

[brewercm]

A part of the problem with some of these people and coming out of college is they expect to get making the same amount of money as say their parents did who've been in the field for 20-30 years. They expect to have the same house, same cars, same everything immediately. It just doesn't work that way and then they complain and wine that it's just not fairl.
I say aske me about fair in 25 years when your kids hit that marketplace and expect everything you have at that point.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by TxLerman

Your comments make little sense:

Did you sign a binding contract with this promise as part of the terms and conditions?

No. So what? You ignored what I wrote in your insistence to assert your point.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

You sound like someone with sour grapes.

Actually, I sound like someone who is disgusted by people lying with false promises and misleading statements.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

My point of my previous comment and this one is that people can choose their education and choose how they perform at their position.

And my point is that has little to do with success in the business world, and certainly does not justify the cost of a college education.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

People need to do their homework on market value and make wise choices.

That's part of the lie the colleges use to excuse their unreasonable pricing. It's an excuse they make to avoid the blame for their product.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

It is completely in the individual's control.

You are putting the blame on the victims.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

No one made your mom get a degree in education

Actually, they did. She wanted to get her degree in Pharmacology, but she could not get funding for that. But, regardless, why would a college offer a degree with little value? That sounds like someone selling a defective product.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

and no one made you get an associates in laser technology.

Now, this I find grotesquely amusing. Exactly, what is your point? Your comments imply that I should have known that the job market for laser techs was going to disappear 4 years before it did. So, again, you are blaming the victim.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

You and your mom chose.

Irrelevant, as regardless of our choices, the outcome is the similar.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

You make the marketplace sound like an evil place.

It is.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

It is merely a place where buyers and sellers come together and transact.

Amidst fraud, deception, incomplete information and manipulation.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

The Market determines what it is willing pay for people with specific skills based on supply and demand of people with those skills, not what an individual paid for their education.

The Market is rigged. That includes the college marketplace.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

The problem I always have with forecasts is that they are never right. Name one forecast that can accurately predict 25 years into the future. However, you have the ability to monitor the market and adapt your career accordingly to changes in the market. You have complete control.

Never mind 25 years into the future; try 2 years into the future! How can someone reliably and reasonably plan out a 4-year college education when the marketplace can completely change in 2?

Programming is an example of how fast these changes take place. When I entered college, Wordperfect was still written in assembly language, but the coming wave was C. I never intended to become a programmer, but I did add C programming to my electives. Within a year of taking that class, employers were hunting for people who knew C++. Eventually, I took a class in that, too. But, then the only jobs available were for people who knew Visual Basic. Soon after that, Java began to be popular.

I never intended to be a programmer, but I marveled that no matter what class I took, employers would want something else. Sometimes, I have seen job postings that require 5 years of experience in a programming language that has been commercially available for hardly more than 4 years.

I will say that PHP seems to have holding power.

Incidentally, the career life of programmers tends to be short. Most programmers find the job so stressful that they switch careers after 3 or 4 years.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

Regarding #1 and #2 in your comment, that is where reality and forecasts diverge and this is normal. So? Your #3 sounds like a grand evil conspiracy from a sci-fi movie like the MATRIX. If you want a high-paying position, research what those positions have those salaries and get the appropriate training to enter those labor markets. Don't complain about not being paid like a rock star if you can't carry a tune.

When markets lurch so chaotically, planning becomes impossible, and success becomes a matter of luck.

I take it that you don't like to believe that your future is out of your control. You don't like to believe that anyone other than you is responsible for what happens to you. But, in fact, that is often the case.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

There is a shortage of nurses right now and starting salaries have been rising for those positions.

On what do you base that statement? Government data? The same government data that said that laser techs were a rising career field with high pay?

Originally Posted by TxLerman

That is the market in action. You predict it will be a failure, but you have not demonstrated that you can predict better than anyone else. Will it be a failure next year, next decade? What will be the source of the failure?

I predict that most people who enter the nursing field hoping for a well-paying, fulfilling job will become disillusioned within a few years of entering the field.

One constant about the market is that employers will look for the cheapest labor they can get. They aren't going to allow wages of employees under them to keep rising; only senior executives get that treatment. If we reach the point that wages would have to rise above the threshold that employers would tolerate, they will find a way to outsource those jobs. One possible route--though not the only possible solution--would be to hire nurses trained in Mexico or Cuba.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

College gives you the skills to perform a job and is one of the keys to success, but it is not the whole story. Being personable and playing well with others is a necessity in todays market place and this is a skill that cannot be taught in school.

Many of the most successful photographers are big jerks. Same with senior executives. Of course, that's for people who are in control of their own lives. For those of us who are forced to be wage slaves, employers want someone who is compliant. Anyone who rocks the boat is a threat to management. So, business naturally leads to mediocrity.

Originally Posted by TxLerman

Also, how well you market yourself also determines your value in a competitive market place.

At the end of the day, it is up to YOU!

Most marketing is a bunch of lies strung together into a believable story.