#1 No-College-Needed Job

[Imagebuffet]

How many people do you think are happy in their job? How many people would keep the job they have if they were given a choice of any job?

I'm inclined to believe that the majority of people are not particularly happy with their job. They keep their job for much the same reason that people continue living in the slums; they cannot go anywhere else.

I have to wonder how enthusiastic someone who dislikes their job feels about the money they spent to get that job?

[dryicerx]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

Actually, I sound like someone who is disgusted by people lying with false promises and misleading statements.
...
Amidst fraud, deception, incomplete information and manipulation.
...
The Market is rigged. That includes the college marketplace.

You say that like this is the first instance of false promises. Every single thing out there that's being marketed has false promises and advertising, and if you didn't get the memo: life isn't fair. And yes, I am blaming the victim, it's really up to the consumer/user to research and dig deeper without taking in all the information blindly without analyzing it.

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

And my point is that has little to do with success in the business world, and certainly does not justify the cost of a college education.
...
That's part of the lie the colleges use to excuse their unreasonable pricing. It's an excuse they make to avoid the blame for their product.

That really depends on the degree/major. You really can't clump together a degree in something like political science and biomedical engineering, and in their own fields the two majors really count differently. As far as the expenses, It's really up to the consumer/student to figure out their finances and the worth of the degree beforehand (calculate how much it would cost, then figure out if the how the knowledge they acquire + their personal abilities -> realistic job and salary they can make). Majority of people don't do this, and then get screwed and get drowned in debt.

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

Never mind 25 years into the future; try 2 years into the future! How can someone reliably and reasonably plan out a 4-year college education when the marketplace can completely change in 2?

If you go in to get a technical degree that just teaching you a skill to perform a very specialized type of work... of course that skill will be outdated in a matter of years. I completely agree this type of degrees are worthless. Not all degrees and programs are like that though, so you can't really generalize this over everything.

The programs/degrees people say college is valuable for are the ones that expand your knowledge and thinking ability rather than learning a specialized skill, for example the sciences and engineering. For example the theory behind most of the majors, that type of knowledge is timeless.

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

Programming is an example of how fast these changes take place. When I entered college, Wordperfect was still written in assembly language, but the coming wave was C. I never intended to become a programmer, but I did add C programming to my electives. Within a year of taking that class, employers were hunting for people who knew C++. Eventually, I took a class in that, too. But, then the only jobs available were for people who knew Visual Basic. Soon after that, Java began to be popular.

I never intended to be a programmer, but I marveled that no matter what class I took, employers would want something else. Sometimes, I have seen job postings that require 5 years of experience in a programming language that has been commercially available for hardly more than 4 years.

I will say that PHP seems to have holding power.

Incidentally, the career life of programmers tends to be short. Most programmers find the job so stressful that they switch careers after 3 or 4 years.

People don't go to college to be programmers, like I mentioned before this is a easily acquired specialized skill. You don't need a degree to do that.

And if you think PHP holds value right now, you're in for a world of pain.




Correct me if I am wrong, but you are holding the institute accountable for the success of the people who come out of it with a degree. Honestly, I don't think they should be, it's really the person's responsibility to learn and use the resources provided by the institute. Last I checked, and by personal experience, only a small fraction of people fully utilize the resources by college and the rest simply just do the minimum required to get by, and of course they will get screwed at the end.

And finally, somewhat contradicting my entire post and disagreeing with the belief held by a majority, I also believe that Correlation does not imply Causation: Are people who go through good college programs successful because of the college program, or were they bound to be successful anyways and because of that got in to good college programs.

[texxter]

Interesting report from the U.S. Census - http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by dryicerx

You say that like this is the first instance of false promises.

It is an instance. Every instance of a moral failing is a moral failing.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

Every single thing out there that's being marketed has false promises and advertising, and if you didn't get the memo: life isn't fair.

An ethical society works for fairness.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

And yes, I am blaming the victim, it's really up to the consumer/user to research and dig deeper without taking in all the information blindly without analyzing it.

You are being presumptuous when you assume that the consumer/user hasn't researched.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

If you go in to get a technical degree that just teaching you a skill to perform a very specialized type of work... of course that skill will be outdated in a matter of years. I completely agree this type of degrees are worthless.

And, yet, Collin College offers 31 of these "worthless" degrees. Your statement clearly shows that Collin College is engaging in fraud.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

The programs/degrees people say college is valuable for are the ones that expand your knowledge and thinking ability rather than learning a specialized skill, for example the sciences and engineering. For example the theory behind most of the majors, that type of knowledge is timeless.

That's actually the opposite of reality. I already qualify for an AS in General Studies. You seem to think that would be worth more than an AS in Physics, or that an AS in Physics would be worth more than an AAS in Computer Technology. You seem to think that a general degree in medicine would be worth more than a specialized degree in neurosurgery.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

People don't go to college to be programmers, like I mentioned before this is a easily acquired specialized skill. You don't need a degree to do that.

Oh, so UTD is ripping off students by offering a degree program in computer programming? Oh, they don't call it computer programming; it's Software Engineering or Computer Science.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

And if you think PHP holds value right now, you're in for a world of pain.

Calls for PHP programmers have shown up consistently for years. Of course, that could change, but I've seen premature warnings of its demise years ago.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are holding the institute accountable for the success of the people who come out of it with a degree. Honestly, I don't think they should be, it's really the person's responsibility to learn and use the resources provided by the institute.

I am holding institutions accountable for fairly pricing their product. Ultimately, how valuable are these degrees?

[bobcool]

I agree that you can make a solid upper middle-class living without the need to hold a college degree. This is especially true in the IT and software development industry.

But here's what I've noticed - generally speaking there's a glass ceiling when it comes to getting promoted to those higher positions that really pay the bigger salaries. These positions usually manage other people and required strategic leadership skills, and when jobs like this become available I have yet to see one that didn't require a college degree. It seems that all the senior leadership in major companies are college graduates, many with MBAs, and most of them are Marketing alumni. Revenue and generating sales is the lifeblood of any company, so it does make sense. Looking back, it makes me think I should have went to a traditional college and put the time (and money) to get a Marketing or Business degree of some sort.

But, I can't change the past, so I'll just work on changing myself to make me more valuable in my current field.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by texxter

Interesting report from the U.S. Census - http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf

You should also consider this report:

Economic scarring: The long-term impacts of the recession

To summarize, individuals who enter the workforce during a recession suffer permanent economic damage, compared to those who enter the workforce during normal or rising economic times. If all else is equal, someone who enters the workforce during a recession will earn more than 2% less in his lifetime than he would have if he had entered the workforce during a normal economy. He will never earn as much as someone else who enters the workforce at a different time.

Here is an easier-to-read news article about the EPI report mentioned in the last paragraph:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/econom...-to-heal_N.htm

"Those whose families fell into poverty during the early 1980s paid the price throughout their adult lives, says First Focus, a bipartisan advocacy group in Washington, D.C. They typically received less education, were less healthy and had less consistent work histories.

"The results showed in their paychecks.

"In 2001, adults who had been 10-14 in 1979 and then fell into poverty had a median family income of $44,000, compared with $64,000 for those who stayed out of poverty during the early 1980s."

IOW, it doesn't matter how well these people do in college, or what they study; they will always earn less, simply because they have been scarred by getting caught in a bad economy when they were vulnerable.

[shutterfire]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

You should also consider this report:

Economic scarring: The long-term impacts of the recession

To summarize, individuals who enter the workforce during a recession suffer permanent economic damage, compared to those who enter the workforce during normal or rising economic times. If all else is equal, someone who enters the workforce during a recession will earn more than 2% less in his lifetime than he would have if he had entered the workforce during a normal economy. He will never earn as much as someone else who enters the workforce at a different time.

if this logic holds true then if have a Masters degree I will earn. 2.5 million in my work life minus 2% since it was a bad economic time = 2.45 million

If I graduate from high school and have no further education I will earn 1.2 million in my work life minus 2% = 1.17 million


hm-mm---- Education =+ 1.28 million over 40years = approx 32k per year more .

Nah wont effect my life at all pass the ramen noodles.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by shutterfire

if this logic holds true then if have a Masters degree I will earn. 2.5 million in my work life minus 2% since it was a bad economic time = 2.45 million

If I graduate from high school and have no further education I will earn 1.2 million in my work life minus 2% = 1.17 million


hm-mm---- Education =+ 1.28 million over 40years = approx 32k per year more .

Nah wont effect my life at all pass the ramen noodles.

The logic I presented holds true, but the precise numbers may vary. Your logic, though, fails to take into account that the median may be far removed from the mean.

"Of those laid off, few will regain their previous standard of living. Even 15 or 20 years after being laid off, workers who lost their jobs during the recession of the early 1980s still earned a median 20% less than their counterparts who worked throughout the downturn, according to research by economists Till von Wachter, Jae Song and Joyce Manchester."

USA Today: "Recession scars will linger long after economy heals"

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by bobcool

generally speaking there's a glass ceiling when it comes to getting promoted to those higher positions that really pay the bigger salaries. These positions usually manage other people and required strategic leadership skills, and when jobs like this become available I have yet to see one that didn't require a college degree. It seems that all the senior leadership in major companies are college graduates, many with MBAs, and most of them are Marketing alumni. Revenue and generating sales is the lifeblood of any company, so it does make sense. Looking back, it makes me think I should have went to a traditional college and put the time (and money) to get a Marketing or Business degree of some sort.

There is a glass ceiling in business for anyone who is not in management. An engineer's career will quickly plateau. If he hopes to be promoted higher or earn more money, he will have to go into management.

Ironically, a BS in Business is virtually worthless in the job market (or, so I'm told, repeatedly).

[shutterfire]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

You should also consider this report:

Economic scarring: The long-term impacts of the recession

To summarize, individuals who enter the workforce during a recession suffer permanent economic damage, compared to those who enter the workforce during normal or rising economic times. If all else is equal, someone who enters the workforce during a recession will earn more than 2% less in his lifetime than he would have if he had entered the workforce during a normal economy. He will never earn as much as someone else who enters the workforce at a different time.

Here is an easier-to-read news article about the EPI report mentioned in the last paragraph:

Recession scars will linger long after economy heals - USATODAY.com

"Those whose families fell into poverty during the early 1980s paid the price throughout their adult lives, says First Focus, a bipartisan advocacy group in Washington, D.C. They typically received less education, were less healthy and had less consistent work histories.

"The results showed in their paychecks.

"In 2001, adults who had been 10-14 in 1979 and then fell into poverty had a median family income of $44,000, compared with $64,000 for those who stayed out of poverty during the early 1980s."

IOW, it doesn't matter how well these people do in college, or what they study; they will always earn less, simply because they have been scarred by getting caught in a bad economy when they were vulnerable.

[QUOTE=Imagebuffet;1167449]The logic I presented holds true, but the precise numbers may vary. Your logic, though, fails to take into account that the median may be far removed from the mean.[/QU

The numbers came directly from the article you sited. I just did the math for you.

[Imagebuffet]

[QUOTE=shutterfire;1167451]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

The logic I presented holds true, but the precise numbers may vary. Your logic, though, fails to take into account that the median may be far removed from the mean.[/QU

The numbers came directly from the article you sited. I just did the math for you.

Odd that your numbers and your conclusion don't agree with the numbers and conclusions in the articles. Perhaps you left out something?

[shutterfire]

if this logic holds true then if have a Masters degree I will earn. 2.5 million in my work life minus 2% since it was a bad economic time = 2.45 million

If I graduate from high school and have no further education I will earn 1.2 million in my work life minus 2% = 1.17 million


hm-mm---- Education =+ 1.28 million over 40years = approx 32k per year more .

Nah wont effect my life at all pass the ramen noodles.

32k/ year is a significant difference. Its like comparing Geo's to Lamborghini's.
or better yet: disposable P&S cameras to SLR's they both take photographs but the difference is immense.

[ka5txl]

Originally Posted by HotHolly

I personally think im gonna become a private detective & find missing persons, then whip them into shape as their personal trainer, and then take their glamor shots. I might even moonlight as a director of security as my weekend job. I can be bad-ass. I just chose not to be - most of the time.

I'll go missing, if you find me and you can whip me into shape. I hope mike doesn't read this

[Zack Davis]

IF people lived by numbers that told them they couldn't, wouldn't and shouldn't than the world would be a pretty lame place.

If you go to college and get a degree but don't apply that degree as the tool it is and instead try to use it as a giant "hire me cause I have a degree" flag of course you're going to fail. Degree's aren't money they're something to show you can be given a large task that takes years to complete and not only do it successfully but competently. This is all within a little protected bubble where square blocks fit in square holes unlike the real world experience a person gets out of school in the real job.

Though a specialized degree (even in something like thermodynamics) doesn't mean you can only apply your skills you gained while getting that degree to that specific job. Nor does it mean you do everything you were taught in the process of earning that degree very well. Really there's just too many variables to say if a person will be "more" wealthy, successful, happier with or without a degree because it comes down to the person.

[brewercm]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

An ethical society works for fairness.

Something about this quote just rubbed me the wrong way then I figured it out. Then I realized what it was.

No a Socialist society works for fairness. I think I'll pass on making sure everything is fair for everyone else. I'll take care of me and my family and if everyone else did the same that would be pretty fair.