Employment Negotiation

[Imagebuffet]

Right-to-work supposedly includes the right to negotiate employment freely between prospective or current employees and employers. However, employers maintain several advantages that prevent fair and reasonable negotiation. First, the employer has all the money. Second, the employer hides information that might be prejudicial against his position, while probing deeply and demanding all relevant information from the employee.

I'm filling out a job application right now that is asking me for my salary history. How many companies do you know that publish the salary histories they pay? It doesn't happen! My last employer went to great lengths to discourage employees from knowing what each other earned. One isn't supposed to discuss it. That's because the employer regards prospective salary information as a key negotiating strength in its favor.

The free market is a myth, designed to benefit companies.

[mercphoto]

Calm down. Its not that bad. I mean, when you're negotiating with your customers/clients do you not hold stuff back yourself?

Just because they ask for info doesn't mean you have to supply it. Especially if it is confidential information, which salary is. I have never given salary info out when negotiating for a job. All you have to do is tell them that is confidential info that you can't give out, just as it is for them and their current employees.

[hue-e]

the way I look at it... with the way the economy is, employers hold all the cards knowing that there are quite a few people in line for the job. if you want it, comply with what they ask for, if not, argue it and get passed over.

[mercphoto]

And things weren't reversed when things were going like gang busters? When the economy is bad the employers have an upper hand. When its good the employees have the upper hand.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by mercphoto

And things weren't reversed when things were going like gang busters? When the economy is bad the employers have an upper hand. When its good the employees have the upper hand.

No, things definitely were not reversed when the economy was roaring! For one, the companies definitely benefited either way. The difference was, the companies did not lay as hard on the employees as they do during hard times.

My former employer, in particular, hardly did anything to improve our lives, even in the best of times. After 3 years of a company-wide pay freeze, they finally gave us a small raise one year, then froze pay a few more years. I got one more pay raise out of them, another small one, before they finally fired me. After 10 years of working for them, my pay had barely kept ahead of inflation. And, what do you think that 10 years of experience does for me on the job market? Nothing that I can see!

So, that's the employee's "upper hand"; continued employment at minimal pay!

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by mercphoto

Calm down. Its not that bad. I mean, when you're negotiating with your customers/clients do you not hold stuff back yourself?

I never negotiated with customers/clients. I usually provided internal tech support and internal logistics. And, anyway, even if I did negotiate with customers/clients, that doesn't mean that my negotiation with employers is fair to me.

Originally Posted by mercphoto

Just because they ask for info doesn't mean you have to supply it. Especially if it is confidential information, which salary is. I have never given salary info out when negotiating for a job. All you have to do is tell them that is confidential info that you can't give out, just as it is for them and their current employees.

I suppose that wouldn't hurt. They already aren't hiring me.

[David Whatley]

Hey, its "their" job not yours. The just took it back. I ALWAYS as for salary history so I know if the person is in the ball park of what I want, and can pay for that position. No need of me wasting mine, or their time, if I cant afford them now is there?
If we are in the ballpark, I will normally start them out at a lower rate ofr 120 days and if things work for both of us, they get a raise. If not, there is someone else sitting outside that wants the job.
If you, or anyone for that matter, doesnt like being the employee, start your own business.

[brewercm]

You have to do some studying to find out two things. First, what is the market value for your skills at the given time. Second and more importantly, what is your real value to a prospective employer, and you have to be realistic about that. Once the two are a fit and meet both parties needs (especially the employer) you have a realistic chance at landing that position.

[Coelus]

If you don't like being an employee, then be an employer. Then you can win both ways.

[mercphoto]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

No, things definitely were not reversed when the economy was roaring!

Well, it most certainly was for my industry. It most certainly DOES happen.

My former employer, in particular, hardly did anything to improve our lives, even in the best of times. After 3 years of a company-wide pay freeze, they finally gave us a small raise one year, then froze pay a few more years. I got one more pay raise out of them, another small one, before they finally fired me. After 10 years of working for them, my pay had barely kept ahead of inflation. And, what do you think that 10 years of experience does for me on the job market? Nothing that I can see!

So, that's the employee's "upper hand"; continued employment at minimal pay!

You sound like you are not in a good situation and I'm sorry to hear that. But I personally have never spent 10 years at any single employer before and I have a hard time fathoming wanting to do so. Often, to get ahead, your best bet is to find somewhere new to go to. And if that employer doesn't do anything to improve your life even in the best of times, I'm sorry, but I gotta wonder why you stuck with an employer like that in the first place. I would have bolted.

[tropicpine]

I have never shyed away from asking a prospective employer any question during an interview. I ususlly ask more questions during the interview than the prospective employer. I have no qualms about asking what the starting pay range is and what is expected of me for the position in question. ( I do take their answer with a grain of salt.) When I started with my current employer my expectations for what was to be required of me was set at about 66% of the actual requirements. After one year I informed my employer that due to this discrepency I could not continue to work in that capacity. My employer offered me a much less demanding position for the same pay.

Before the interview I have researched the employer thoroughly. (Web site, quarterly reports if available, pending and past legal actions, non employer sponsored forums about the company frequented by employees) Additionally I have current salery surveys for comprable positions in the industry.

My response to the OP: As a prospective employee, you do hold cards. You do not hold the same card as a prospective employer. Most propective employees are hesitant to play their cards. You shouldn't be.

[dbphotos]

It is a free market. You have to be able to sell yourself on paper to get the interview and then sell yourself in the interview to get the job. With regard to stating your income, you always have the option of deferring the answer until your interview.

[Steelsun]

And remember some employers do social media background checks on their hires (not many right now, but some), and just think if they read this thread. Doubt they'd hire you after reading it.

I'm also filling out alot of applications and sending out resumes. My resumes never have my salary on them, but some of the apps that I fill out have to be done online, and some require salary info (won't let you proceed without it). It sucks, but it is what it takes to get a job. What really sucks is that the last 2 years I have been an independent consultant (and self employed) and my pay varied depending on what task/job I had that week. And the apps won't allow "Varied" in it.

[Some Idiot]

It's ok Richard, you can seek revenge... you will eventually land a job, and when you do, strive to do the bare minimum :-) j/k

[ronocnikral]

smash the system!!!

my professional society does an intensive salary study every year. i check it each year and know about what i should be getting paid.

i never fill out salary info on a job application...my first "real" job application was when i was 15, which was also my last. all the rest have been filled out ex post facto, when i had offer in hand and it was an HR maneuver.

maybe you should try out california or michigan's employment systems if you detest texas' so much.