For the millionth time

[rab3rd]

I have a conundrum. I have a married couple that are friends that have asked me to do some portraits of their son (one year old). I have done this for other married friends, as well as for them, in the past and they are happy with the results. What I have done is to set up a gallery for them on my smugmug site and offer them 20 or so pictures to choose from to print at a nominal price, maybe enough to cover my gas cost to get to their house to shoot. Now this couple is insisting on paying me real money to do this. I keep telling them I would do just like I have done in the past but they are insisting on paying me.

I dont have a lot of experience with portrait work and feel I am a LONG way from being able to charge real money. With them insisting on making a payment I was thinking this.

100.00 for a shooting fee that would include 2 8x10's printed by me (I have a pro 3800 and Im not afraid to use it. LOL) and then the same deal on the smugmug gallery. I have charged 5.00 for a 5x7 and 15.00 for a 8x10 through the smugmug site.

Does this seem like I am asking too much or even too little? Or should I go another route?

I know this subject has been beat to death but I am not sure what to do, looking for some objective advice.

Thanks in advance for taking the time...

[mmuhlenkamp]

I'm at a similar level you are, I think I'm pretty good, but not great but do feel I need to be compensated. Though for peace of mind I'm currently doing a "satisfaction guarantee" where I charge $100 for the first hour of shooting ($75 for each additional), I ask for a check but will not cash it until they see the web gallery and see that they actually like the photos. If they don't like it I destroy the check, the client has only risked an hour and we move on (I've only done 2 gigs this way so far, no problems yet )

I feel this way I can charge enough that's it's worth my while (assume 3-4 hours total work for $100 is a reasonable self-employed hourly wage). Currently I'm not really selling any prints just burning a disc (for shame!). If I start getting more work I'll adjust this as needed, but for now it suits my needs.

[kimberley]

Id say offer them a set fee for images in a disc :)

[rab3rd]

I have seen enough people get torn a new one for doing that Kimberly. I am slowly working towards doing this as a part time business so I want to do the correct things to ensure myself a good return for my work. Giving away the images isnt something I want to start doing, even for friends, for fear of it becoming expected.

Maybe thats the wrong wy to look at it, maybe not.

[janikphoto]

I hate shooting close friends and family. I usually just shoot them and after they receive the images, I ask them to pick a price. They pay what they feel comfortable with and I don't feel that awkward pressure that comes from mixing business with family/friends... I tell them what my actual costs were to make the shoot happen, and they usually find a fair number to pay on top of that. Do you think this system would work for you?

[rab3rd]

It may Jason, I dont mind shooting friends and family. Its really a no pressure situation. I know what I am capable of and so do they so the quality/abilty is never an issue. Having said that, and since they are insisting on paying for my time, I thought this might be a good opportunity for me to get my feet wet with having some type of pricing.

[mmuhlenkamp]

Yeah, family is a bit different, I don't really set a price (but don't just do EVERYTHING for them I try to make it clear that even though I like doing photography, it's still work). I take a similar approach as to Jason's and just ask them to pay what they think is fair. Also, I'm mostly exempt from gift giving anymore since I'm the "official family photog" so that pays for itself right there.

[janikphoto]

Originally Posted by rab3rd

It may Jason, I dont mind shooting friends and family. Its really a no pressure situation. I know what I am capable of and so do they so the quality/abilty is never an issue. Having said that, and since they are insisting on paying for my time, I thought this might be a good opportunity for me to get my feet wet with having some type of pricing.

My issue isn't about ability and quality. I figure that if my pictures are good enough to run in Rolling Stone and the NY Times, my pictures are good enough for my neighbor or my cousin... However, I still feel a sort of awkward pressure when dealing with people close to me and taking their money. These are the same people that I'd take a weekend off to go help them move or spend a lot of money on food and drinks and throw a party for them. They'd offer me help, gifts and other items without charging me, too. I think that's why it's hard to cross the line from close friend to business. That's why the "name your price" works for me. They know I am now in business mode and don't mind paying something, but still appreciate that I'm giving them a deal.

Understand, though... my situation is different, because I don't shoot families, kids or a bunch of weddings. My paycheck comes from corporations, newspapers and magazines, so I don't have to troll friends and family for business. For a full-time family portrait photog or wedding photog, they'd need to draw a very firm and defined line between their business and friendships. They can't start giving away their product to the same people they depend on for referrals and business. I don't need to do that, because any business coming from friends is just a little side money.

[Tom]

To add onto what Jason said... I do things either for free or full-price. Nothing in-between.

If I am invited somewhere, I am either there as a paid photographer, or I am there to be a friend. Nothing in between. I won't just bring my camera along. It won't be good for my portfolio.

[janikphoto]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

To add onto what Jason said... I do things either for free or full-price. Nothing in-between.

If I am invited somewhere, I am either there as a paid photographer, or I am there to be a friend. Nothing in between. I won't just bring my camera along. It won't be good for my portfolio.

Yeah, I've taken this approach several times, as well. It helps keep things more defined, and the free times are seen as a special gift, instead of discounting your work.

[mrsrice22]

Originally Posted by rab3rd

I have seen enough people get torn a new one for doing that Kimberly. I am slowly working towards doing this as a part time business so I want to do the correct things to ensure myself a good return for my work. Giving away the images isnt something I want to start doing, even for friends, for fear of it becoming expected.
Maybe thats the wrong wy to look at it, maybe not.

I have THAT exact same feeling when it comes to friends and family. I'm also "new" to this industry and still have that awkward feeling of being paid but I also hate the feeling of giving up my time both at the session and afterwards for processing/ordering/etc to only be called on when they need free pics. Which, that irritates me because it is work, it's time away from my family, in some cases I have to pay for daycare/sitter, and it's work, lol.

I think that setting boundaries up front will help alleviate some of that awkwardness. Sit down one night and put yourself in their shoes and see what you think would be fair if you were asking for free or discounted services from them. For example, if one is a mechanic, maybe he would not charge you labor and only make you pay cost for parts, would that be fair to you? If so, then maybe you can shoot for free but only charge for prints.

I think that for me what I might do is either charge my set fee, include digital images that they like and offer them prints at cost. Most likely if they take the digital images, they'll go elsewhere to print them, so that point is moot but atleast they have the option of having it printed professionally to the lab that's calibrated to my laptop. Or do it for trade and work out details.

I just can't swallow doing free sessions anymore, if it's a mini session with a normal paid session then it's alittle easier but time is money and my time is scarce, lol!

[rab3rd]

I appreciate all the responses. Lots of variety on how to handle this. I see them as follows:

A. Do it for free as a gift
B. Do it on a contegency
C. Do it for free, or charge full price.

Is that correct?

If so, then:

A. I tried this already, they insist
B. I havent tried this maybe its an option
C. I see this as dont do it at all since first I dont even know what full price is and second I dont think my lack of experience warrants the same price as the full time been doing it for a thousand years people.

It seems there has to be some middle ground between all or nothing in a case where someone is asking specificaly for a number. Does it not look like a lack of confidence if the reply is weeellllll, how about you pay what you think its worth?

I also hate the idea that the rank amatures shooting for friends at a intermediate level pricing could be thought of as trolling your friends for business. I dont believe that was directed at me as I was asked to do it, not asking if I can. But for anyone else reading this I hope they dont take it that way.

Anyone else have other ideas to add? All opinons are welcome liked or not. ;-)

[rab3rd]

Originally Posted by janikphoto

I hate shooting close friends and family. I usually just shoot them and after they receive the images, I ask them to pick a price. They pay what they feel comfortable with and I don't feel that awkward pressure that comes from mixing business with family/friends... I tell them what my actual costs were to make the shoot happen, and they usually find a fair number to pay on top of that. Do you think this system would work for you?

So where do you draw the line? The gas it took to get there, the cost of a CF card, the cost of the lights, the cost of the camera body, the cost of the lens? Only being silly to make my point.

[mrsrice22]

Figure out what your time is worth and go from there.

You have the following to consider:
1) travel time - an hour or more
2) session time - up to 2 hours
3) processing time - 1-4 hours, depending on your skill level and amount of work involved
4) proofing, uploading, website maintenance, etc - varies depeding on how you set it up, but basically the time you put into creating a gallery of the finished images for them to proof
5) ordering time - Do you sit down with them and go over ordering, paper samples, etc? if so, maybe an hour or so
6) receiving and distributing - get your products in, make sure their up to your standards, contact your client and deliver, chat, have coffee, accept praise for awesome work, lol

Okay, so after all that, I figured 4 hours is a good guestimate on how much time I'll spend from the time I start shooting to when I upload and say "they're ready". For that, I charge a set fee which only covers my time, nothing else.

Then, prints, digital files, etc are marked up and sold for profit and to cover any extra work you might have had to do.

I feel for now that $100 for my time is reasonable and fair and for print and digital pricing I try to stay close to what they're going for in this market area.

The other thing that you could always do is set your fee/price and offer promotions, that way you're not known as the cheap/free photographer and people won't be shell shocked when your price goes back to normal.

[srwatters]

Family and friends pay in single malt Scotch or California Pinot Noir.

That or a thank you is typically what I get. Then again, models rarely pay either. PT Barnum had a saying about folks like me