Forum Culture

[pixartist]

OK, so I've been visiting this forum for the last month and I'm still trying to get a pulse on the culture of this forum.

Usually, when I am invited to forums, it's typically because of my expertise. That is, I've built up a pretty good reputation for helping a lot of professional photographers, both new to the industry, and seasoned pros.

So far, as I see it, there seems to be quite of mix of amateurs, some "wanna be" pros, and a small splash of seasoned pros (a dash of season...oh, nebbermind). I have nothing against amateurs, mind you. We were all amateurs once. Even amateurs need to grow in their craft.

I've seen some very good images, and I've seen a lot of not so's. The question is, how thick skinned are all of you? I can be brutally honest. But not because I'm a meany, but because I have cared deeply for this art for over 30 years. If this forum is to succeed, people around here are going to need to be brutally honest. Most forums thrive on informational content, and thus, the members get a satisfaction of learning something. If we are all going to spend our time in forums, it seems we really need to get something worthwhile out of this.

Personnally, I'm involved in another forum that gives it's members satisfaction and it is also free. There are about 7000 members on that forum to date and the expertise level is quite high, professionally and artistically. So, just like any other "business", what is the mission statement of this forum?

[Abel]

Originally Posted by pixartist

OK, so I've been visiting this forum for the last month and I'm still trying to get a pulse on the culture of this forum.

Usually, when I am invited to forums, it's typically because of my expertise. That is, I've built up a pretty good reputation for helping a lot of professional photographers, both new to the industry, and seasoned pros.

So far, as I see it, there seems to be quite of mix of amateurs, some "wanna be" pros, and a small splash of seasoned pros (a dash of season...oh, nebbermind). I have nothing against amateurs, mind you. We were all amateurs once. Even amateurs need to grow in their craft.

I've seen some very good images, and I've seen a lot of not so's. The question is, how thick skinned are all of you? I can be brutally honest. But not because I'm a meany, but because I have cared deeply for this art for over 30 years. If this forum is to succeed, people around here are going to need to be brutally honest. Most forums thrive on informational content, and thus, the members get a satisfaction of learning something. If we are all going to spend our time in forums, it seems we really need to get something worthwhile out of this.

Personnally, I'm involved in another forum that gives it's members satisfaction and it is also free. There are about 7000 members on that forum to date and the expertise level is quite high, professionally and artistically. So, just like any other "business", what is the mission statement of this forum?

Lemme preface this by giving a little background as to why i originally created a photography forum to begin with.

About 3 years ago when I got into photography I was a complete newbie and hardly knew anything about my camera. I took a few good photos, well at least I thought they were good and posted them on a photography forum that I had been lurking on for a while in order to try to get some constructive feedback on the image. My hopes were to get some advice, ideas and just all around comments on the image in order to improve myself as a beginner photog. In fact I got nothing of the sort. I even mentioned in my post that I was a newbie and knew there was prolly a lot that needed improvement but I needed other experienced photogs to lead me in the right direction.

Instead of getting constructive help I got a bunch of demeaning, unprofessional and flat out rude responses of how I should read the manual, take a class or just come back when you get better etc. I was so disgusted that the forum admins actually allowed their site to carry an attitude such as that towards new members when in fact everybody that was bad mouthing me were once beginners as well.

It really bothered me and I vowed never to return to that forum again... and to this day I still have not.

Fast forward a few weeks when Lisa and I were spending every single weekend out looking for stuff to photograph in order to help flatten my learning curve and get me more experience. We were starting to run out of ideas of what and where to shoot so I thought of creating a photography forum strictly for the Houston area in order to get ideas and share locales with other area photogs. Well it grew like crazy and we had to take it state wide and it has been doing very well ever since!

There were a few things I wanted out of a forum and I have my own set of guidelines and rules as to how I wanted our community to act. First and foremost the forum (including this one) is for all photographers no matter what the level of experience. I do not want new photographers to get the same negative vibe from our site as I did from that other unnamed forum. We were all beginners at one point or another so why not share the information we have learned with someone new to the hobby. We all share the same passion for photography so there is no need to speak down towards a beginner photography.

One thing I have seen first hand in the almost 3 years of admining the TexasPhotoForum is that I know a ton of photographers that when they first logged into the forum they had just gotten their camera and new little about photography and the business of shooting professionally. Now those same photogs have taken what they have learned from many others on the forum and are now in business for their selves and some have even retired from their everyday job and took photography full time. Had some of these photogs gotten the treatment that I had spoke of earlier chances are they might not have gotten to the level they are at as quickly.

Constructive criticism is always welcomed... some will take it harder than others but the one thing we can assure is that the criticism is given on a very professional level and not demeaning in any way. A person is much more open to advice if it is given to them in a very courteous and polite manner.

Some of our rules address the matter in which this forum is based on...

-----------------------------------------
5. Courteous Criticisms
When critiquing posted photographs, please do it in an adult, considerate and professional manner. Do not insult the photographer or simply state "it sucks" etc. Give a reason as to what you may feel he/she could have done a little differently in order to get better results. Also, feel free to offer some positives about the image itself that you did like, this will inform the photographer what worked well in your opinion. We can all learn a lot from each other here so let's be professional about it.

7. All levels welcomed
Everyone from a very beginner to a seasoned professional photographer is welcomed here on the forum. With that being said all members are asked to be considerate to a newbie when they ask questions that you may feel are "stupid". We were all beginners once in this hobby of ours so lets keep that in mind and help people are wanting to learn about photography. Negative comments can be a complete turnoff for a newbie and he/she may decide to never return.
-----------------------------------------

We pride ourselves on being a very beginner friendly website since I for one have been on the other side and can say that it is not fun nor is it how I want our community to act. Our community here on CPF will continue to grow and so long as everyone is courteous and professional I am sure members will continue find their way towards us.

For the past month or two I have been very swamped in my personal life with the wedding plans & the 2 week honeymoon etc but now that I am rested and all caught up. I plan to hit the pavement hard once again and spread the word about CPF and get this forum put on the map!

Thanks...

[windrivermaiden]

Well said, Able. That is just the kind of forum I want to be part of. None of that newbie bashing. a place for a true exchange of ideas.

[pixartist]

I agree whole heartedly that newbie bashing is not the way to go. But, newbies also need to be able to take criticism without feeling they are low on the totem pole. That is, if they want to grow in photography, they need to know exactly where their images stand in the grand scheme of things. As a beginner, I used to get beat up all the time in print competitions, but I knew that what I learned in college photography was inadequate. In attending those competitions, I saw what the real good photographers were doing. These were the one's I aspired to over the last 30 years. But I had an open heart to learn and know that with the "tough love" of my peers, I would succeed in my passion for photography and art.

It seems, on this forum that people are a bit too afraid to criticize. Even with some of the really nice images that are posted here could use some criticism. I agree that we can't talk down to a newbie, but I don't think we shouldn't pull the punches either if there is nothing that could be revelatory to their growth, photographic-wise or business-wise. I've taken a challenge approach in this forum with a couple of members here. Simply because when a photographer posts something out here, I want to know "why they like the image". Not because they just "like it", but why they like it. There is a difference. Just that difference is what put me at the top of my class in college, and pretty dang close in the professional world.

Wind, you got a small dose of that with your albuman images. while people were saying "nice" and "wonderful" about your alternative process, is that what you really wanted to hear? Or did you want to get feedback on how you can do tremendous things with your newfound media? For me, I'm dabbling in the platinum process, but Weston and others have already done all the stuff seen today, I'm working on a new way of seeing with this process, and I feel that you have the potential with your process as well.

So, I know there is a fine line here, but do you want a mutual admiration society, or a place that you can further your art, or your ability to see that you can make a better living over the "secure" jobs you have now?

[windrivermaiden]

Of course, being a total suck-up, attention-mongering artist, I want to hear the ooohh's and awwww's. But also, if there is some one experienced in printing in albumen process, I would totally like to hear informative information on what has made for successful printing for them. If the comment will provide insite or artistic value...fire away.

I think that is usually the way to go...not straight out criticism. but helpful tips and "I learned from this" or "this is how I'd do it" comments that are productive in stearing the photog to betterment of the image. Another thing is to ask what the photographer likes about their own image and find a way to use that to focus criticism to add to the person's intent of the image.

So often, it is the delivery of a critique that either sets the tone as to a helpful suggestion of a rip on a person's work. There ways of critique that can tell you your photos need tremendous work in a way that makes you feel like you are on your way:w00t: ...and those which make you feel that you have nothing to offer the field of photography and make you want to tuck your tail between your legs, and head for home, dropping your gear in the nearest Goodwill drop off .

My aim is to for the ones which make people want to try harder even if it means more competition for me. Competition will only make me strive improve my own photography.:)

That's my 2 pennies of wisdom.

[pixartist]

That's why I titled this thread to culture. It takes a while to develope an idea as to what each person actually is saying in these forums. Typically because reading a persons thoughts and understanding them is different than meeting a person face to face. Once you understand how that person's writing personality, then you start understanding their intents of what they are trying to tell you. Right now, it seems everyone on this board is a bit stand offish and until everyone gets out of their shell, the faster this forum will develop.

I did not do an introduction because usually most people get a pretty good handle of where I'm at and what I do. Believe me, after 30 years in the profession, I'm in the "give back" mode of existance to photography and it really has been my charge to teach ever since I got my degrees.

[Silverstangs]

I am no professional and far from it, and honestly if someone asks me what a professional photographer is, I am not sure I can answer that anymore. I will come back to that later on a different post.

Now about me, I have been holding cameras and capturing light since I was about 5 or 6 years old. I have always considered it a way to express my way of seeing the world, which seems to contradict other people's view of the world. For example, during a nice sunny bright day, most people on this planet will say the sky is blue. In my view, the sky is clear, and what people are really seeing is the reflection of the water off the ozone layer. The proof of that is that at night, you can see the starts twinkling in the sky. Yeah I know, some other people will say the sky is black, but if that were true, we would not be able to see Saturn, the Sun, or the Moon, again, the sky is clear. This is actually a concept that I had as a little kid and was actually inspired by the character “SPOCK” on Star Trek who made a statement about logic, and then by a statement, that Bruce Lee made in one of his movies.

I currently run five forums, none of which is photography related but involve other hobbies. I have come close to starting my own photography forum because I am quite put off by many of the larger forums. I do not like large forums with more than 1000 active members with maybe around 3000~5000 registered members. I find many times that you end up with big ego’s that stomp on the newbie’s. Creativity is squashed, and people are turned off the hobby, what ever it may be because they feel they cannot compete or feel that the hobby is very competitive. People get into a hobby to relax, have fun, and get off the stress train and to do something that does not feel like WORK.

As far as feedback, being purely brutal is not the best approach. It does not make any sense to kill a fly with a sledgehammer. Being honest thou, is better than sugar coating an issue. The other side of the coin, is that the person that is on the receiving end needs to have an open mind and look as things as a way to improve. The moment you think you know it all, is when your mind is closed.

I do try to give comments, but I am standoffish because I do not really know how receptive people are to my opinions and views. The reason, I do not know ANY of you personally yet, but I hope too. I was hoping to get a small gathering together just to hang out and BS for a while.

[PICTURE THIS!]

Originally Posted by windrivermaiden

Of course, being a total suck-up, attention-mongering artist, I want to hear the ooohh's and awwww's. But also, if there is some one experienced in printing in albumen process, I would totally like to hear informative information on what has made for successful printing for them. If the comment will provide insite or artistic value...fire away.

I think that is usually the way to go...not straight out criticism. but helpful tips and "I learned from this" or "this is how I'd do it" comments that are productive in stearing the photog to betterment of the image. Another thing is to ask what the photographer likes about their own image and find a way to use that to focus criticism to add to the person's intent of the image.

So often, it is the delivery of a critique that either sets the tone as to a helpful suggestion of a rip on a person's work. There ways of critique that can tell you your photos need tremendous work in a way that makes you feel like you are on your way:w00t: ...and those which make you feel that you have nothing to offer the field of photography and make you want to tuck your tail between your legs, and head for home, dropping your gear in the nearest Goodwill drop off .

My aim is to for the ones which make people want to try harder even if it means more competition for me. Competition will only make me strive improve my own photography.:)

That's my 2 pennies of wisdom.

Windy, I now see why the private message was written to me in regards to your comments of my pictures in a thread I posted. Your approach is greatly appreciated along with your constructive critisism.
After being here at this forum for some time I have had a lot my mistakes pointed out, which I love. The part that frustrates me is that I don't always know how to fix them. I may be the "newbie" that people have been stepping lightly with. I think I am going to take a little break from posting until I can get some hands on schooling and learn a thing or two. That doesn't mean that I won't be lurking around! Oh, I'll be here trying to pick up tips from other people's mistakes and of course to see some great photographers at work.

Before I creep off into the shadows, I would like to say that not everyone is trying to be a "professional". I love this form of art just as much as the next guy even if I am not getting paid to do it. Photography is my passion even if it doesn't pay the bills. It makes me happy! :w00t:

I love this forum and I think it's awesome to have the different levels of talent here, it's a learning experience for EVERYONE! Take care all!

[imported_timothybui]

Such high expectation there, Micheal. I didn't join this photo forum to become some kind of "professional" photographer. I only joined because I wanted to learn a few things here and there to figure out my potentials and skills to where I stand for "my style" in shooting.

But don't take my word for it, it's only 6:45AM and I haven't slept yet. I don't think I'm making any sense at all, lol.

[pixartist]

Usually when I am invited, it's because they're pro forums. But my simple question was "what type of forum is this"? I can accept, with no problems that this is a combination of different interests. Regardless of Pro status, or amateur, these things ring true: It's all about passion and whether you're a pro, or not, you still have to learn. If you take any photographic workshop of the hands on variety, whether it is West Coast School, or Asilomar, you will come across criticism for your work. Brutally is in the eye of the person at the receiving end of things and, like I said, it depends on the thickness level of their skin.

I've been honest with a lot of folks in the past in all levels of photography. Those in the pros are well on their way to becoming Master Photographers (and some have already reached their milestones) and those in the non-pro fields have done very well in the various state fairs. Perhaps brutal isn't the correct word, but tough love is the correct phrase. In my college days I had some of the finest teachers and I attribute their diciplines to my becoming a pro.

There is one thing I will get on people though. Those who are doing things as "side cash" to their "real jobs". That is if you are going to do this as a side job, I might get on someone for charging for just the markup of the paper the image is created. It should be charged on your talents, and if your talent is only worth $5 for an 8x10, I'm going to get on you. There is no excuse for that. There's a lots of photographers trying to make a living, mortgaging their homes, and trying to feed their families. Undercutting them by $70 per 8x10 is absolutely unacceptable, and the fact that many of them also aren't paying the proper sales taxes and not insured for liability is a shame. This is the very reason why people think they can't make a living in photography.

Enough ranting. Back to the thread. Picture This' post is exactly what I am talking about. The culture does not develop and the members start to drop out because they find no intrinsic value in being here. It's like this, suppose you have a club with 100 people in it and you are all sitting out on a deck with your ice teas. All of them just want to hang out and relax and talk to one another. But all they want to do is small talk. The next day, only 80, then, 50 the next. People need stimulation for their time. If they come into these boards and not find anything usefull, they will drop out. Picture This is about to become the first of many casualties.

[PICTURE THIS!]

Originally Posted by pixartist

Enough ranting. Back to the thread. Picture This' post is exactly what I am talking about. The culture does not develop and the members start to drop out because they find no intrinsic value in being here. It's like this, suppose you have a club with 100 people in it and you are all sitting out on a deck with your ice teas. All of them just want to hang out and relax and talk to one another. But all they want to do is small talk. The next day, only 80, then, 50 the next. People need stimulation for their time. If they come into these boards and not find anything usefull, they will drop out. Picture This is about to become the first of many casualties.

Michael, I want to start off by saying that I'm not leaving because of the lack of helpful critisism. I've had great advice from Mark, Snarfy, Crystal, etc...I just don't know how to apply what they or you are suggesting. That is a frustration of my own. After I read this thread, I realized it was time to take a break from posting because I don't like the politics of it all either. I don't want brutal, harsh anything. I'm sorry, I'm not that thick skinned and if that's what it is going to come to, then I'm going to sit back for awhile. I'm also not saying that I have received any of that, because I havn't. Ive encountered some very nice people here. I can see certain people starting to get upset with certain topics on this forum,ex: undercutting. I have my opinion on that too. Not everyone is going to charge $70 for an 8x10! I'm about to do Senior portraits for two people I know. They know I am no professional, but they actually like my pictures. I'm only charging them $50 each. I don't think I am taking anyone's dinner off of there table. I'm providing a service for two young kids that could not afford Senior pictures at the prices pros are charging. I'm going on and on now. I'm not a casualtie, just taking a break, becoming a "lurker" for awhile.

[pixartist]

Just remember that when they come into the session to look at their $150.00 shoes. :D

It's not that they can't afford it, it's that they don't want to afford it. How often have you bought something you thought you could not afford, but loved it so much that you were willing to make the plunge into buying it? People don't buy things out of need, they buy things for desire.

Good luck with your sessions, although if there is anytime to learn how to correct mistakes, it would be now, before you take on any clients. For me, I'm very comfortable with my $300 8x10's :)

[Silverstangs]

Originally Posted by pixartist

. For me, I'm very comfortable with my $300 8x10's :)

You live in the Bay Area, and people there tend to make MUCH more than people in Sacramento. I think for where your at with $70~$150K Year saleries, people will be willing to spend the $300 for a 8x10. Here in Sacramento, the average income is around $30~$40K a year AND many people have paid way to much for their homes because the Bay Area people moved in and raised the cost of living. The income has not caught up to that.

[pixartist]

There has to be people in the sacramento area with incomes in the $300,000 combined household. Check your demographic info from the county. In fact, I know of a photographer there with a $300,000 + income there!

In fact, I know of at least two photographers in your area who are charging pretty darn close to these prices and they are driving around in their Mercedes. It is not impossible in any area. Come to think of it, there's a photographer in Nevada City who's been charging my prices (actually more) for quite some time now.

[Silverstangs]

Yeah I know several people that have those high incomes, they moved from the Bay to Sacramento and commute to the bay area. Again, thou, it;s not the average income, but I'm working on getting there.