Hobby or undercutting?

[Silverstangs]

Here is the situation that recently happened...

I recently had a photo shoot, which involved three RC Cars in which I took the images. My friends liked a few images that I have taken of several other RC cars that belong to my brother and myself and wanted similar images of theirs as well. I agreed to do that for a small nominal amount because I figured it would be very easy to do and since it is for my friends, it would not be a biggie. Later that day, I met up with my friends and I spent about 30 minutes to capture the images. The light was perfect and I pretty much nailed the shots by the third frame for each object. About a couple weeks later, I met up with my friends at a local Tapioca Express to give them their images. I charged each one $30 for each of the images and I had charged them $25 each for showing up at the place. My cost for the prints was only $4.22 each, so I made a little bit of money, but not enough to burn a whole in my friends wallets. A person asked to see the images, and my friends showed them the images, he had a look like he was pissed off or annoyed, and he handed the image back to my friends. He said nice cars and he sat back down at the table he was sitting at. My friends and I chatted for a while, and then had to leave and I was still waiting for someone, so I stayed.

After my friends left, that person that asked to look at the images came up to me and started giving me the 3rd degree for undercutting his business and the business of every photographer around. He was loud and pretty much everyone in the teahouse was paying attention. I kept my cool and asked him politely how I was undercutting him. He stated LOUDLY that I charged excessively little for the images and that for a service that I provided. He then stated that I should have charged about $70~$100 per image based on the high quality of the images and the print. Then he asked if I had a permit to take the images at the "facility" that I took the images at and if I am insured to cover any damages that I might do. I said I took the images on the patio of a back yard, so why would I need a permit or insurance for doing something as a hobby at my friend’s house? His next statement was "You just took food off my dinner table by undercutting my business and you’re ripping California off.” I then asked him if he has ever taken images of RC cars and he said, "NO, I'm a wedding and commercial photographer!” My statement was, and then I guess I must have killed your business by taking images of toy cars... and I walked out.

I took the images for my friends as a favor, and they have little money so this photo-shoot was done as a hobby for my personal enjoyment. It also benefited my friends because they are receiving the enjoyment of another hobby (RC Cars). It was an idea that spawned in my garage, by me for my personal gratification. My friends liked the idea and asked me to do the same for them.

My intention was NOT to "take" away business from anyone around, or undercut anyone. In this instance, the work was not commissioned as a “side job” for me to supplement my income. Now I read Michael’s statement, which rather reflects what this other person was saying.

Originally Posted by pixartist

There is one thing I will get on people though. Those who are doing things as "side cash" to their "real jobs.” That is if you are going to do this as a side job, I might get on someone for charging for just the markup of the paper the image is created. It should be charged on your talents, and if your talent is only worth $5 for an 8x10, I am going to get on you. There is no excuse for that. There's a lots of photographers trying to make a living, mortgaging their homes, and trying to feed their families. Undercutting them by $70 per 8x10 is unacceptable, and the fact that many of them also aren't paying the proper sales taxes and not insured for liability is a shame. This is the very reason why people think they cannot make a living in photography.

My questions for those of you that are “Professionals” are…
Do you feel that what I had just done, undercuts your business?
Where is that line that I stepped over from doing something as a hobby into undercutting other photographers that are in the business?
If you could set the prices for a hobbyist, what would you charge?
When do you consider someone as being professional vs. being an advanced amateur?
When do you think a person should take on photography as a profession instead of hobby?
How did you figure out when it was time to stop calling something as a hobby, and more of a profession?

Also, is there ever a time in which a professional can go to being a hobbyist? For example, I used to do weddings as a business back in the late 80’s early 90’s but got out because of the conversion to the EOS system was too much for me to absorb so I stepped out of the business. I also was not sure if I wanted to be a photojournalist or just stay in a studio. I then decided I wanted to serve in the military, which was a great vacation.

[pixartist]

The job itself was probably not the issue IMO, it's the prevalent attiude towards the value of your work that has to change. The fact is, the moment you accept any money from any source for your work, it indeed becomes work, thus, you have entered into the professional realm. So welcome to the profession! I would say, that your prices aren't too out of line for weddings, but for commercial or Portraits, they are (again, IMO)

It is estimated that there are thousands of photographers who are doing professional work as side jobs in California without a license (state resale). Let's say 1000 photographers in a given week do $200 each. That translates to a state tax revenue loss of approximately $17,000, which for a year is $884,000. And we're complaining how the schools are underfunded? And in liability. People will sue you for anything, even for not delivering images on time to them! A colleague of mine was sued for not delivering a 16x20 by Christmas and he lost a judgement of $900,000! (PPA stepped in and got the amount reduced to $6000, but that still isn't chump change) Can you afford that kind of liability? So insuring even on a friends patio is a real good idea.

How much time did you spend on your 8x10? Did you do any Photoshop? (1 Hour) did you go through the images and select the best ones to show him? (half hour) Did you drive over to meet him with his images? (half hour) Did you drive back to that location to deliver the images to him? (half hour). So far, we have 2 1/2 hours.

Lets say you went to work and you gave your boss $4.22 in cash. Then you worked for him for 2 1/2 hours for $30. Would that feed your family? You'd probably be grumbling about your job and how the boss underpays you. Well guess what? You're the boss, and you are underpaying yourself.

You see, no well-intentioned people have any intentions of undercutting (there are some bad eggs in this profession). We are not all meanies. But it is the lack of understanding of what others are sacraficing to do what they love to do that is distressful to the profession of photography. Professional photographers have the highest rate of poverty to almost any other profession because of the fear that if they "charge too much" they will not get the business and the customer will look for a "side job" photographer.

I've had my fair share of people going to other photographers because of price, and I feel good about it: That photographer was chosen because they were cheap, and the potential client is cheap. For me, lower priced photographers don't affect my business as much as the $100 8x10 photographers are affected. My clientele base knows what they are getting into.

But I do feel deeply for the photographers who are starting up in an honest manner.

Is there a passionate life of photography after you become a professional? Sure there is! My greatest creative output has come in the last 4 years and I am enjoying it more than ever and the excitement is more than my college days. And the great thing is, I am immersed in the creative aspects day in and day out. Now, I'm not a volume studio, we average about $3500 a portrait session, so I have plenty of time to live artistically.

[Silverstangs]

I clear the things about how much I charged, but I probally did not state it clearly-- all three RC cars was done at the same time for three different friends at one location.

For all three friends, I charged them $25 each for showup to the one location which is 3 x $25 = $75
I took a grand total of 18 images, and 6 was selected right after the images was taken, we looked at them on my laptop using DPP right there on the spot, actually didn't touch the images at all. < 7 minutes.
I spent about another 5 minutes total to convert the images from raw and set them up for printing using DPP and uploading via FTP.
I charged them for each image $30 and they all wanted two images of their individual rc cars, which is 3x2x$30 = $180- $25.32 for printing = $154.68.
My drive time to the patio was < 8 minutes.
The shoot was about <30 minutes. I spent more time adjusting the cars than taking the images.
My drive time to Tapioca Express was <8 minutes.
I used a online print company so the shipping was $11.95
So total about 1 hour's worth of time for $217.73.

So that's how I came up with what I made.

[Silverstangs]

I understand that I do need to charge what is appropriate, and again, I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I'm also under the impression that the insurance I have that covers my gear covers any damage that I may cause while doing a photoshoot.

[pixartist]

Originally Posted by Silverstangs

I understand that I do need to charge what is appropriate, and again, I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I'm also under the impression that the insurance I have that covers my gear covers any damage that I may cause while doing a photoshoot.

You need to look at your policy under business liability. It should be somewhere around $1m. Typically, equipment loss is not covered in any liability cases.

So, now that you have the time calculated. How much of your equipment was used, the wear and tear of your your computer, you camera, your lens. Also add into account any time you spent on the phone consulting them, or time befor the shoot in consultation. The cost of your phone to talk at anytime to your friends. When working on the final images at home, did you have the air conditioning on? How about the cost of you mortgage in you home for space used for production? Cost of the internet to send the files to the lab, or the cost to get the files to the lab to get these printed? How about the wear and tear of your car just for starting up and driving those 8 minutes? You have to factor all of this in.

Also, can you maintain that 217.73 per hour 8 hours a day, 5 days a week? You will find that actual time spent and idle time in between also has to be accounted for.

That is why photographers are still undercharging.

[Killjoy]

I'm not trying to throw gasoline on a fire, but what if Scott had done the images for his friends for free, and let them print them where ever they wanted?
Would that photographer at Tapioca Express still have gotten upset, or would he have talked to Scott about going pro? Or would he still have tried to rip Scott a new butt hole for not charging enough, and taking food off the table?

[isaiahbrink]

You know, I don't think you were in the wrong at all! I also have to throw this in here, who in the hell charges $70 or more for an 8x10 unless it's a fine art peice hanging in a upsacle art gallery? I mean, come on now, I pay a bit more than $4.22 for an 8x10, about $5.25 plus tax, and I only charge around $15 - 20 for an 8x10. Am I trying to undercut you or anybody else? By no means am I trying to screw anybody over in any way shape or form. Let's face it, if you shoot digital like I do, even if you have a high end camera like I do, that still dosn't justify such a huge markup imho. We've all heard of and some of us have experienced pre-madonna's with regards to models, well, a lot of photographers have some pretty huge ego's too.

[windrivermaiden]

Here is my opinion....

This particular instance is not an undercut of the pro or even an undercharge for your own work. and here is why....

The Pro never had a shot at the business in the first place because #1 your friends wouldn't think to have a pro come over when they are playing with their cars and #2 given the price point he/she needs to charge to make a profit, these photos would never gotten taken because they would rather put that money into their RC hobby. People will spend for luxury items what their wallet will allow. Now, if You had been able to take plastic for your little RC car venture, that might change, but as a cash exchange. NO CASH/ NO PHOTOS. You were compensated for your time and expense and made a little on a "job" that was not out there for level playing field consumption.
Another way to look at it is... does sex between friends cost a prostitute money off his/her table. No, because the business is not out there for public consumption.

Now, if you go to a venue where there are photogs hired to cover the event for a publication, or intending to present their work to an editor and take photos and then go to their intended editor and give the photos for free or nominal cost...yep, you bet your bottom dollar that you are cutting into someone's lively hood. That is one place where I do think that the Pro is getting screwed. The Publishing company is run by bean counters...a photo is a photo is a photo to them...and they will take free over paid any day. If they can get free...how the heck is a photog supposed make a buck. Of course it costs the publishing house some where else but they don't realize that the money they spend on a well taken photograph means that a graphic designer isn't spending time on the clock making that photograph printable. (but then where would I make MY buck?) If we had a union...we could take out billboards touting Pro photography's worth. But until then, it is up to the individual photog to educate their clients. You have to be a better salesman and a better photographer than the next guy to get work in the digital age. It is just the way it is. And its tough cookies if a person isn't up to the task.

When it comes to portraiture...it is the price point that wins out.

Look at the 4.99 photos that Walmart takes. Those customers go there for that package because it is all they can afford. and they take plastic. Yes, there are a few people with more money who go there and get the cheap deal because they are cheap,but they wouldn't appreciate the quality of a decent photographers work anyway. Is that the kind of client you want to try to please. Dude! they'd try to nickel and dime you every step of the way. and then not even appreciate the work you do. Are you selling your work or your integrity? for me...No thanks! The next group of portrait buyers with a little bit more loose cash goes to JC Penny, the next tier to Olan Mills, the next to a small time pro, and the majority of the big spenders will seek out a big name pro. In that field...there is pretty much room for everyone.

JMHO

[windrivermaiden]

Oh and I have my proper tax paperwork too. So, the gov't is getting their share.

[pixartist]

Originally Posted by isaiahbrink

You know, I don't think you were in the wrong at all! I also have to throw this in here, who in the hell charges $70 or more for an 8x10 unless it's a fine art peice hanging in a upsacle art gallery? I mean, come on now, I pay a bit more than $4.22 for an 8x10, about $5.25 plus tax, and I only charge around $15 - 20 for an 8x10. Am I trying to undercut you or anybody else? By no means am I trying to screw anybody over in any way shape or form. Let's face it, if you shoot digital like I do, even if you have a high end camera like I do, that still dosn't justify such a huge markup imho. We've all heard of and some of us have experienced pre-madonna's with regards to models, well, a lot of photographers have some pretty huge ego's too.

Isaiah, read my justification in #2.

First question: At $15 per 8x10, do you realize how many 8x10's you have to sell to make the same wages you do in your "real" job? and add to that self employment tax on top of that (which is approximately 1/3 of your profits in addition to your salary).

Second question: Do you think your company you work for can undercut a competitor for 1/10 the price and stay in business and pay your wage?

Third question: Is your art worth only the paper it is printed on? Don't you have better self esteem for your creativity?

The average price of a portrait 8x10 in both "at home studios" and "retail studios" is about $50. The cost to make the first 8x10 for both types of studios is an average of $82.50.

Studios, in the last PPA report done last year are going out of business at a rate of 95% within the first 5 years.

You do the math.

[pixartist]

Crystal, I gotta disagree on a couple of points. People, in general have no idea what is the correct price point. To a potential client, even $25 for an 8x10 would seem expensive to them.

So, what if Scott charged $70 to them saying it is a 30% off of what he normally charges? That would promt the RC guys to do either one thing, or another: They would call around to other photographers and see if the pricing is in line, or they would do something else. If they say no, that's fine, really, there will always be another job that will pay those amount. Take pride in your work, people! Don't let anyone chose you because of your prices. And if you think you can compete against Wal Mart, you are going to lose big time.

The more you charge for your work, an interesting phenomena happens: People think you must be a good photographer. Dispite all your samples, they will not be as impressed as they will for you confidence in what you charge for your work. Trust me on this one. The first time I premiered my 16x20's at $1300,, people were buying them like hotcakes. That left me saying "Sonofagun, why didn't I do this years ago!"

You guys can do all you want, I'm not twisting any arms here, but statistically, all your rhetorics on why you should charge lower prices do not make any sense, and the number of studio failures bears this out. You (not just you, Crystal) cannot do the volume, or keep up with the volume if photography was your only source of income. And that's why many of you are "trapped" in your "real jobs" AND that's why many of you are saying "I could never make a full time living in photography".

Get the parallels now?

As a side note: My studio does about 100 portrait sessions a year at about a $3500 average. I don't twist any arms to have clients hire me, and they are absolutle proud to have a "Gan Portrait". I sell 24x30's and larger to 95% of my clients. If you want to sell a Lexus, or a Mercedes, the people are out there, and if they desire it, they will come. Your competition is really the other industries: Would they rather spend the money on the wedding dress, or your Photos? Would you rather spend the money on a car then your photos? Your images are for your clients lifetime. Don't sell yourselves short.

[Killjoy]

Originally Posted by pixartist

Would they rather spend the money on the wedding dress, or your Photos? Would you rather spend the money on a car then your photos? Your images are for your clients lifetime.

And that exact reason is why when my wife and I got married, we looked at the photographers body of work when we chose, and not at the price.
Those photos are always in our life instead of a fading memory.

Our tenth anniversary is later this month, and we still display (and look at) our photo album, as well as the few photos we have displayed around the house from our wedding.

[isaiahbrink]

Hey Pixartist, send your clients my way, not only will they love the improvement in quality, but they'll love the price. LMAO, do you think Wal-Mart got to be the worlds largest retailer by buying and selling at the same price as their competition? Same exact product, just costing the customer less. And btw, that's only my normal commercial stuff that I sell for that price, I don't let my fine art work go for any less then $90 for an 8x10, and ya know what? People don't complain, so I do value my creativity, it's just the normal product shots are so freaking mondaine and void of creativity that I cannot in good concious charge as much as you do. Trust me bro, I've worked in the field for a very large advertising company, and they don't charge that much for product shots, which RC cars fall into. Ok, they may be out of the package and moving, but, ok, use a faster shutter speed.

[Silverstangs]

Originally Posted by isaiahbrink

Hey Pixartist, send your clients my way, not only will they love the improvement in quality, but they'll love the price. LMAO, do you think Wal-Mart got to be the worlds largest retailer by buying and selling at the same price as their competition? Same exact product, just costing the customer less. And btw, that's only my normal commercial stuff that I sell for that price, I don't let my fine art work go for any less then $90 for an 8x10, and ya know what? People don't complain, so I do value my creativity, it's just the normal product shots are so freaking mondaine and void of creativity that I cannot in good concious charge as much as you do. Trust me bro, I've worked in the field for a very large advertising company, and they don't charge that much for product shots, which RC cars fall into. Ok, they may be out of the package and moving, but, ok, use a faster shutter speed.

If you don't mind, what is the going rate for Product Shots?

[isaiahbrink]

Of course it varies from area to area, but it's the cost of the item that needs to be shot if not provided by the customer, and then approx. $9.00 an hour for the shooting and post production like photoshopping, clipping paths, etc. I worked for a company that was capeable of going from a product shot to several million impressions a week. Obviously on a printing press, that's the prints made, not the higher quality prints we get from the photo lab. And oh, that's including full medical benifits for the staff photographer who also did the post production on the image. At the most, 5 images were taken, and the one best image was selected out of those and that one is used for that product.