Colorspace, file size, and printing frustration

[iCe]

I'm getting frustrated with online printers. The one that I have tried insists on me taking a perfectly good 100 meg PSD file, edited in "the colorspace of my choosing", dropping it to 8 bit, CHANGE the colorspace to sRGB (which makes no sense to me. Why tell me that I can edit in any colorspace and then tell me to convert it to sRGB?), Save as a JPG level 10... level 10 not 12.... and then upload the file so they can send me 8 x 10 proofs. The proofs came in. They don't match what I see on my calibrated monitor. In one case the difference is bad enough that I just about threw the image in the trash. I didn't expect them to be very good but I was hopeful. You can't very well delete 90% of the image data and not see some degradation in the print... But... that's what they want... Now we are dancing around workflow... I read their FAQ... it's not a workflow issue...

If file size and color space were no big deal then:

(A) there would be no need for FF sensor camera's
(B) there would be no camera's capable of creating a JPG image any larger than 3Mb
(C) there would be no digital backs for medium format camera's
(D) there would be one colorspace

I wonder how many people believe them?

[Clint_Smith]

What Lab?
Do you have your Soft Proof settings in Photoshop set correctly?
Do you have an ICC profile for the lab?

Never use a lab that won't except at least a TIFF...the colorspace is generally gonna be sRGB though, unless you are doing offset printing for publications though....

[iCe]

WHCC (heard about them here)

Yes. Well.. I set them up per Scott Kelby (his book actually). I use my monitor profile.

No ICC for the 8 x 10 proofs though they do supply some ICC profiles.

I think they limit the JPG (only. No other types) size to 3 or 4 Mb... and then told me that file size really doesn't matter. That ticked me off. I write control programs for a living. I'm a 0's and 1's kind of guy. Yes or no. Very little gray. It matters.

I can deal with sRGB colorspace... it's the file size thing that sets me off...

[Clint_Smith]

I use millers...and they handle 18mb - 50 mb tiffs fine. Take forever to upload, but they except them. I also colormange through directions from their online docs too. no problems since I switched to their standards..I agree..if you start throwing away 1s and 0s something has to give...so I try not to unless it just gonna be 8x10 or smaller.

might wanna check a different lab. I have never used WHCC, but have heard great things about them, but JPG only is a crock.

[jeffkohn]

West Coast Imaging can handle any color space you throw at them, and they have no problem with TIFF's.

(They're also a TPF sponsor I believe)

[iCe]

I'll check some other labs out. At one time I was going to buy my own large format printer... DOINK... then reality slapped me in the head. Not an economical way to go... not at all. It would never pay out. Not for me anyway.

Thanks

[jeffkohn]

Originally Posted by iCe

I'll check some other labs out. At one time I was going to buy my own large format printer... DOINK... then reality slapped me in the head. Not an economical way to go... not at all. It would never pay out. Not for me anyway.

Thanks

For small prints, maybe not. The larger your print, the more you save printing yourself though especially if you want something nicer than Kodak/Fuji paper.

[iCe]

Originally Posted by jeffkohn

For small prints, maybe not. The larger your print, the more you save printing yourself though especially if you want something nicer than Kodak/Fuji paper.

Really? I may have to reconsider. Would you say that "larger" is anything over 8 x 10?

One thought that I had is that the only way to fully manage the process is to do everything myself... We'll see...

[Jay Henley]

I got the following response back last week regarding color space (adobe rgb, srgb) from West Coast Imaging. I have not tried to use them yet.

Hi Jay and thanks for your email!

Yes, we can use ICC color profiles of any type, including the ones you mention. Your file should be tagged with its workingspace profile. However, there is no need when printing with us. To learn more about this, take a look at this Print Lab FAQ page.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Best regards,

Laurie


On Jul 16, 2006, at 8:00 PM, Jay Henley wrote:
Does WCI print in the Adobe RGB color space or only sRGB?



Jay Henley
http://www.mydatalion.com

[jeffkohn]

Originally Posted by iCe

Really? I may have to reconsider. Would you say that "larger" is anything over 8 x 10?

I guess it depends on if you're comparing to Costco, or a pro lab, but for instance even looking at MPIX the "break-even" point seems to be an 8x10.

Someone on DPR had tracked ink cost and came up with a number of $1.88 per square foot on the Epson 2400. That doesn't include paper, just ink. So for instance ink cost on an 8x10 would be about $1.05. Note that for a wide-format printer the ink costs are lower, for the Epson x800 ink cost is about half of what it is on the 2400.

But where you really get into big savings is if you are talking larger inkjet prints on art paper or canvas. For instance at West Coast Imaging I paid about $95 for a 16x24 9800 print on Museo Silver Rag paper after shipping and handling. Actual cost of paper and ink by my estimate is about $12-15.

One thought that I had is that the only way to fully manage the process is to do everything myself... We'll see...

There's a learning curve, but if you can get past that the results are better than what labs using Fuji/Noritsu/Chromira minilabs can produce. I think for some people printing just might not be much fun, but I happen to consider it part of the creative process - making a really good print is very satisfying.

[iCe]

I happen to consider it part of the creative process - making a really good print is very satisfying.

Exactly! But I can understand why some people might not be interested in it.

WCI has a special going on their 16 x 20 Exhibition prints. $75.00. I may give them a try. The hard part will be figuring out what I want to print...

[billbunton]

Jeff, I agree wholeheartedly about printing being part of the creative process. That's why I've got the 17" printer, certainly not to save money! I just don't print enough to make it a cost-saving proposition. But with my own printer, and doing my own profiling, I've got complete control over the whole process.

iCe, you really need to get the ICC profiles so that you can soft proof. Forgive me if you already know this... The initial goal is to edit the image to look the way you want it to. Then you soft proof to see how it's going to look on the (particular) printer, and make adjustments (using layers) to get the soft proof looking as close as possible to the ideal you edited to.

[iCe]

Originally Posted by billbunton

Jeff, I agree wholeheartedly about printing being part of the creative process. That's why I've got the 17" printer, certainly not to save money! I just don't print enough to make it a cost-saving proposition. But with my own printer, and doing my own profiling, I've got complete control over the whole process.

iCe, you really need to get the ICC profiles so that you can soft proof. Forgive me if you already know this... The initial goal is to edit the image to look the way you want it to. Then you soft proof to see how it's going to look on the (particular) printer, and make adjustments (using layers) to get the soft proof looking as close as possible to the ideal you edited to.

Thanks Bill... I understood that. Sort of. But they don't offer them. They have profiles on their site (and I dl'd them) but not the one that I needed. I suppose I could ask them for what I need. For the moment I'm kind of put off by their "size doesn't matter" attitude so I probably won't bother with them.

[Jim Victory]

I would recommend doing your own printing too. I also shoot with a 1DsMKII so I like to print big. Otherwise you are not really benefiting from the increased resolution. It only cost me about $2 per 13x19 print from my Canon i9900 and Canon Pro paper. I shop around for good prices on paper and ink. Then I buy bulk to cut the cost further.

I have found a number of ink manufacturers that are 50% less than Canon and the quality is indistinguishable. The life is about the same as the Canon ink. The ink is really where you overhead is because it is easy to find paper cheap.

I do my own profiles and calibrate my printer to match my monitor so what I see is what I get.

There are several reasonably priced printers out there by Canon and Epson that can print as good as most labs, unless you need something special done. I assure you most people are quite satisfied with the results without the need to send you shots out to be printed.

[Jay Henley]

Jim and Bill,

I could get my own printer and learn how to use it correctly.... but I thought I would stay away from that. I was afraid that I would not use it enough to keep from having problems with the heads and the ink. Please give advice regarding that. I don't know much at all about printing. If you do not use your printer often do you have problems?