TFP and Glamour Photography

[Elsaspet]

Ok, I thought I would start a new thread on these topics due to a few pm conversations I've had going. I was surprised that a few people felt the same way. I would like other people's thoughts on the matter.

First up is TFP. Hey, I think it's a wonderful thing for the photographer and the model first starting out. I know I've had fun just shooting with other photogs I like whether or not I get paid for the work or not.
But I think we will all agree that the reason we do TFP work, be it as a model, or a photog, is to get our books to a point that we get paid.
The BAD part of TFP work, is on some boards on the net.....is that's all you will EVER get. The same 5 or so kids are there EVERY time. How many free shots do they need for Chriminy? Wouldn't it be nice if they paid the photog every once in a while for the ten grand or so that they have in equipment? The hours of post some of these little darlings take?
So I'm done with TFP. After a point, after you see the same ten year old five times, you've had enough. I think if a model wants more work, instead of filling up their port with mountains of free shots, they should work on the ART of modeling. If you notice, some of the most successful models aren't the most beautiful of all women out there. The thing that they all have in common is that they treat the business very professionally.

Secondly, I feel that some people give Glamour photography a lot of unnessary guff. While some of it is horny guy with a camera stuff, much of it is VERY good. Lighting for instance is crucial. It takes a TON of skill to do it right and make it beautiful. Being a member of Glamour Based boards, or non G sites, aint a bad thing in my book. It certainly isn't a highway to porn as I've seen it referred to. In fact, for some reason at some of these G sites, I've seen teens pulling up their shirts and tugging at their britches. What is the difference? If you are a professional, and you act like one, it won't matter what type of photography you do. You don't need to take pictures of children, animals, and landscapes only to be a pro in your work of choice. I'd love to do some glamour photography if only to learn the lighting secrets!

So, that is my two cents on the matter.

[chloew]

Originally Posted by Elsaspet

The BAD part of TFP work, is on some boards on the net.....is that's all you will EVER get. The same 5 or so kids are there EVERY time. How many free shots do they need for Chriminy? Wouldn't it be nice if they paid the photog every once in a while for the ten grand or so that they have in equipment? The hours of post some of these little darlings take?

The same could be said for most photographers. I'm amazed how many photographers can spend so much time online. I'm not sure why the models should be paying the photographers in your post. What about the photographers paying the model?

TFP works well because both parties get something out of the deal and it's an 'even' trade. People are only willing to pay money for a service if they really need it. In this case, only if a photographer wants a specific model or look in their book or if a model wants images by a particular photographer. But realistically there are very few models or photgraphers in these online forums that are so much better than others that you would actually pay for them. The models and photographers that are at the level of getting paid are probably not active in the forums, but represented by their own agents and agencies.

The only other time models or photographers get paid is if there is a commercial client paying money for the images to use in advertising, etc., or if a photographer/model has a commercial project such as putting together a calendar he/she plans the sell.

[Elsaspet]

Hi Christian, thank you for your response. You have some valid points, but at the same time, I know plenty of models who have never even heard of TFP. Many agencies recommend paid photogs.
Just a for instance, I've recently joined MM and have already gotten two pay requests from models for headshots. I think the difference there is A. There is no automatic expectation of free work, and B. A much more diverse age group and model type.
Again, I don't have a problem with TFP persay, for either model or photographer. What I have a problem with is the expection of free work, and the fact that it's the same small group of people over and over again. Some of them I can't even use for my own book, but you don't want to say no because you don't want to hurt any feelings, so you take the photos anyway and do the hours of post and then there they are again next time.
I guess it's my own fault for that. And I'm sure that some of the models can say the same of me. Perhaps thats another part of the problem. You can't really set high expectations when no money changes hands.
At any rate, as much good as TFP can be, it can also be a detrement. That's why I brought the subject up. Many photogs have very strong feelings on both sides.

[srwatters]

I'm going to stick my nose into this subject since it's so dear to me personally.

TFP:
Right now I either shoot TFP or I pay the model. There will come a time when I will charge for my services, but I don't feel I'm there yet. I have very high regard for the art and will not charge for something that isn't outstanding work. With regard to the children comment, I can't agree more. The group shoots are like that, but in the same breath, they do grow quickly and need shots more often, but not at EVERY shoot. It's no wonder that some of the output from these sessions aren't much more than snapshots. I will produce great images, or not attend. But that is my choice. Photography is a passion and serious hobby for me, and while I may not charge for my services, I will always be professional in the way I conduct myself.

Glamour:
I composed three different responses to the earlier post and each time abandoned because I felt my comments would be taken the wrong way by the author. I agree 100% with what Cindy is saying about a few GWCs giving 'glamour' a bad name. In fact I get very angry when someone lumps me into that catagory just because I have a portfolio on OMP, MM, or GG. Almost all of the models that I have photographed have come from OMP, and not ONE of those have even hinted at taking off any clothes (and neither have I!). If you don't want to work with me because the majority of my work is glamour, then frankly, I don't want to work with you either. Allowing yourself to be brainwashed into thinking that ALL models with portfolios on the glamour sites are on the road to porn, is ridiculous. Think for yourself and get the facts before blindly believing someone just because they are in the 'business'.

I may have a new signature line:
"Glamour does NOT mean taking off your clothes!"

[chloew]

Originally Posted by Elsaspet

Again, I don't have a problem with TFP persay, for either model or photographer. What I have a problem with is the expection of free work, and the fact that it's the same small group of people over and over again. Some of them I can't even use for my own book, but you don't want to say no because you don't want to hurt any feelings, so you take the photos anyway and do the hours of post and then there they are again next time. I guess it's my own fault for that.

I do agree that there should not be an expectation that every shoot is TFP and I think the best thing you can do to eliminate that expectation is to say a nice "No Thank You" the next time a model contacts you for a TFP, if the model will not add something to your portfolio.

Neither model nor photographer should be expected do a TFP purely as a favor. In most, if not all, cases both should benefit in some form from a TFP shoot, either by gaining more experience or skill or by adding something new to their portfolio.

[Elsaspet]

Scott, I think your book is FANTASTIC, and I applaud you for your serious attitude. I feel that you have taken this very seriously all along. And I further believe that is why you get the results you do. You are obviouly a very driven person. That is nothing but admirable.
I'm with you. I have a high regard for glamour photography. Too me it's a much different professional level. I'd love to learn how to shoot it. You've got the lights, and the staging, and the beautiful clothing. What's not to love?
And I can't think of a better challenge for both model and photographer.
You keep doing what you are doing because you are well on your way to be a very well sought after photographer. And a paid one at that.
Don't let the grumbling of a few misinformed folks get to you. A few years from now they will be kicking themselves for snubbing you based on their misconceptions.
Have a great weekend!
Cindy

[Elsaspet]

Originally Posted by chloew

I do agree that there should not be an expectation that every shoot is TFP and I think the best thing you can do to eliminate that expectation is to say a nice "No Thank You" the next time a model contacts you for a TFP, if the model will not add something to your portfolio.

Neither model nor photographer should be expected do a TFP purely as a favor. In most, if not all, cases both should benefit in some form from a TFP shoot, either by gaining more experience or skill or by adding something new to their portfolio.

Hi Christian,
Again thank you for your comments, and you are right. When the situation wasn't right I should have simply said that I couldn't do the work. This is more difficult however in a group situation. But again, that is my own fault.
I agree that there should be no expectation of free work. However, I have been told by some parents that they have been told that they don't have to pay for work. That's it's just silly. What kind of thing is that to tell these parents?
Had I to do it over again, I think I would save my time, and simply hire models to start my book. That way I could get what I want and not have to spend countless hours trying to put forward edited CDs for people who, to me, don't seem all that interested in the business in the first place. Some are, and some aren't but the problem is, you end up with the mix of the two.
TFP can be a good place to start for both Model and Photographer but it helps immensly when the photographer is not sabotaged by parents being told that there is no need to EVER pay for images.

[chloew]

Originally Posted by Elsaspet

Again thank you for your comments, and you are right. When the situation wasn't right I should have simply said that I couldn't do the work. This is more difficult however in a group situation.

If you are talking about a TFP group shoot, then I think there is a warranted expectation that all participating photographers will work with a representative cross section of the models in attandance.

I agree that there should be no expectation of free work. However, I have been told by some parents that they have been told that they don't have to pay for work. That's it's just silly. What kind of thing is that to tell these parents?

They probably have been told that they can always find someone willing to do a TFP shoot, not necessarily that every phtographer will work for free. But then they get spoiled and expect "all free, all the time".

Had I to do it over again, I think I would save my time, and simply hire models to start my book. That way I could get what I want and not have to spend countless hours trying to put forward edited CDs for people who, to me, don't seem all that interested in the business in the first place. Some are, and some aren't but the problem is, you end up with the mix of the two.

I do agree that they are a number of models out there looking for a lot of TFP shoots that are not very serious about modeling as a career and doing the things necessary to make themselves successful.

TFP can be a good place to start for both Model and Photographer but it helps immensly when the photographer is not sabotaged by parents being told that there is no need to EVER pay for images.

Agreed.

[CaptainTom]

I find it hard to believe that all of you good photogs have nothing better to do on a Saturday........... just waiting for the light to be right?? 8) :shock: :P :D

[brad]

Just a subject that people are passionate about, Cap'n.... and understandably so. Photographers have to make a living, too... and we can't do that if the models (and other subjects) are always expecting TFP shoots.

Like Scott, I'm building my book, but I'm already starting to limit kids for TFP.. I have enough for my book and I'm not going to get a lot out of having more (unless I'm just "being nice" or general networking)... I'm still doing TFP for teens (especially boys) and adults of both sexes... but only because I need them for my portrait portfolio book.... that book is being used to get paying work, meaning I need that book to show a variety of ages, looks, and both genders.. and to be of "real people," not just the glamorous models.

[Xposure Photo]

I think we are making progress here, good points and clarification..again...AMEN!

If TFP wasn't available I bet the level of quality would be alot higher. I am not against TFP only group TFP as the quality tends to defeat the purpose, and since someone allready mentioned it turns into nice snapshots. When I do a TFP I onlygive out a limited amout of images, (5-10) if they want more they have to pay, but instead of spending 4 hours on 20 people, I may spent 4-12 hours with 1 person to make sure our hard work really shows, I take it as my paid work...do I need to shoot TFP's??? not really, I do it once in a while, depending on the subject and how I feel, if it is a slow month and I feel like helping someone then I do, and some if I liked their work I have actually hired them for other work or refered them to people I know in the Industry.

TFP is the long and cheap way to get a port together...but time is money and oportunities are lost, and it works both ways, I been there and I know what I am talking about. The new models who starts trying to get TFP's to get their ports with photographers who has no Idea what a port should look like, may spend months and years doing tfp's and getting poor quality, sometimes unedited photos...and since first impressions are all they will loose on potential work for several years. But take the same model who went out and paid a pro (which more than likely will give her tips and she can see how it is really done which means better prepared for the next time) to get good shots for her first portfolio, in turn she could either walk into an Agency ready to work or get work of her online portfolios till making it big and that will be a faster rute and quick $$$ that will pay for her investment in no time!

Same goes for the photographer who hires a pro Model that knows what she is doing and takes his time to learn his craft and asks questions to the model while shooting as o why she posed a certain way etc. giving him some insight and better images for his own port which will in turn bring him some more business etc.

That is a fact! the better the images the more the exposure and people would be willing to pay for a service, its all about vissuals and timming.

I Recently had a new model contact me to do her First Portfolio, she wanted a variety and it was not a TFP arrangement, she had no problem paying, she just wanted something good so she found me doing a search on the net. once we did the shoot, with in days she have gotten lots of work offers, she has allready gotten paid to model and one of my contacts wants to use her in a show in Cali, etc. all with in weeks, lets say she is very happy...and that is not even printing her pics and taking it to the Agency which she may get her actual prints (not of the comp) this weekend. can we say the same about the ones strugling to get TFP's for the past 2 years? what a waste.

Specially now, I am getting more and more requests for TFP's that I have to turn them down as I need to make a living, but once in a while I still do with certain nes, all depending on how they ask and when they do and if they are available when they say so...if they say they will call on a certain day and they don't...more than likely they will be flakes! so Models, br true to your word, don't play games, it is a business...same goes for us Photographers.

this is all for now. :roll:

[chloew]

I'm still surprised to see that there is so much badmouthing going on about TFP shoots. So far I have not seen anyone that was forced to do to a TFP shoot with a model. So if this is not part of your business plan then please turn down any such requests.

I think there are many reasons for a photgrapher and model to do a TFP shoot. For every photographer that has to make a living and can't do a TFP, there are probably 10 hopeful starving models that have a $300 a week job and are just trying to explore the possibility of breaking into the modeling world. They do not have the money to pay someone hundreds of dollars for headshots until they have had the chance to explore the world of modeling, using TFP as an opportunity to do just that. So I would ask every photographer who is working with a model to build up their own portfolio, to pay the model a modest fee (or a percentage of their future revenue) in return for what the model is giving them and the business they are receiving in the future.

As far as myself, I'm not a professional photographer and don't plan on being one any time soon. Not because I don't enjoy photography, but because I enjoy it too much to turn it into work. I do like improving my skills and working with models, but don't have the discretionary income to pay a model every time, so TFP is a perfect solution for me. And hopefully in turn the models can benefit from my pictures, if only to see what an unprofessional picture looks like.

[jeffkohn]

Setting aside the "glamour" issue which has it's own thread now, I'm not really sure what the beef is with TFP, I'd have to side with Christian on this one. For a lot of people the TFP and group TFP shoots seem to be a lot of fun and a good learning experience. From what I've seen of the images posted, there's a fairly broad range of skill levels among both the photographers and models alike, and the feedback from most people has been very positive.

If somebody feels they have moved beyond the need for TFP and is looking for paying clients (photographer or model), then hey that's great. I can certainly understand deciding to get out of the TFP market if you have paying jobs. But I don't really understand the bitterness towards TFP. As long as there are photographers willing to do TFP, there will be models who will choose that route over paying a photographer. If your business plan involves trying to charge for a service that others are offering for free, then you need to either rethink your business plan or make sure you're offering something that the freebie photographer can't offer. That's just a fact of the marketplace.

[rgbii]

Originally Posted by Elsaspet

The BAD part of TFP work, is on some boards on the net.....is that's all you will EVER get. The same 5 or so kids are there EVERY time. How many free shots do they need for Chriminy? Wouldn't it be nice if they paid the photog every once in a while for the ten grand or so that they have in equipment? The hours of post some of these little darlings take?

Hi Elsaspet, I'm curious why you keep seting up to shoot TFP with the
same 5 over and over?


Richard.

[mattchow]

best thread evar. 8)