When does ART become PORN?

[Coelus]

I have to agree with Stovall about the snapshots. Your dog may be cute, but a myspace worthy snapshot of it isn't making you or anyone else a better photographer. Don't take it personally if I'm not impressed by them. 99% of my photos are crap, that's why I only show 1% of them. About half of those are thought to be good by others. It's just tough love.

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by johnastovall

See Sturgeon's Law.

Didn't answer the question .. if you hate 99% of everything here, why do you stay? Sturgeons Law might in your eyes justify your comment, but it in no way answers the question.

[Abel]

Originally Posted by Coelus

I have to agree with Stovall about the snapshots. Your dog may be cute, but a myspace worthy snapshot of it isn't making you or anyone else a better photographer. Don't take it personally if I'm not impressed by them. 99% of my photos are crap, that's why I only show 1% of them. About half of those are thought to be good by others. It's just tough love.

the photos arent posted to make others better photographers... if professional constructive criticism is given then the original poster will become a better photographer..

We all start somewhere and I pride myself that we welcome photographers of all levels here on TPF.

If you come across a photo that does not suite you... please leave a comment or two on how the original shooter can improve upon the shot etc which will not only help that shooter but will also help those other shooters that simply lurk on the forum that dont feel comfortable posting an image themselves.

i have had my share of bad experiences on other forums when i posted an image for advice when i was a complete beginner. my negative experience there and how i was treated by other members on that forum helped mold our current rules and policies in regards to how we operate here on TPF. when i created this forum that was my number 1 goal... was not to treat beginners how i was treated on that other forum...

just food for thought...

[merock]

So 99% of your posts are crap???? It all makes sense now. Thanks!!!

[Citex]

Originally Posted by merock

So 99% of your posts are crap???? It all makes sense now. Thanks!!!

This comment has no purpose of importance.

[merock]

Originally Posted by Citex

This comment has no purpose of importance.

You're right, but, See Sturgeon's Law.

[mbradley]

I'm not trying to explain John's statement, but rather what I took from it. I read his statement with the emphasis on the "When it offends" portion, not the last part. I took that he was trying to make the point that on this site, 99% of what is posted, someone, somewhere is going to take offense to it. If we use that "when it offends" definition, then there would be nothing on the site...

now to the image in question, I did happen to see it this morning, and thought it was beautiful and tastefully done. Would I hang it on my wall? no, I have young kids in the house and don't want to have to answer too many questions right now. :) Would I allow it on the site if I owned the site, yes. Having lived in Europe, my attitude towards the human body is not as restricted as our normal America puritanical upbringing. I'd much rather see the human body, than all of the blood and guts we currently have in our media...

All that being said, this is Abel's site, and when I signed up for the site, I agreed to his rules and his decision is final. :)

[Citex]

I saw it and it told me to never trust someone named merock + :)

[Coelus]

the photos arent posted to make others better photographers... if professional constructive criticism is given then the original poster will become a better photographer..

I agree completely. That's why I post photos online.

We all start somewhere and I pride myself that we welcome photographers of all levels here on TPF.

Again I agree. As I've said I don't think I'm all that great myself. TPF does give a lot of great feedback. We have you and the moderators to thank for that Abel. Y'all keep things civil, yet still allow opinions to be shared. Kinda the whole point of this thread just on a different subject.

If you come across a photo that does not suite you... please leave a comment or two on how the original shooter can improve upon the shot etc which will not only help that shooter but will also help those other shooters that simply lurk on the forum that dont feel comfortable posting an image themselves.

I do if I feel I have something constructive to add. Mileage may very on my comments; I understand that.

i have had my share of bad experiences on other forums when i posted an image for advice when i was a complete beginner. my negative experience there and how i was treated by other members on that forum helped mold our current rules and policies in regards to how we operate here on TPF. when i created this forum that was my number 1 goal... was not to treat beginners how i was treated on that other forum...

Understood. If you care to review my posts I've never went on a thread and told someone their image was crap. I may have thought it, but I never said it. Sometimes people need to be told the truth, but I respect the rules here as much as I can.
I've been told an image was junk straight to my face when having portfolio's reviewed. After sitting back and thinking about it I realized they were junk. There wasn't a couple tweaks that would have helped them, they were just utter crap. Thankfully someone told me.

just food for thought...

Breaking bread with friends is an often neglected luxury.


I was really speaking about no one in particular when I agreed with Mr. Stovall's statement. In fact I made a point to include in my post that it shouldn't be taken personally. If anyone took it personally that's not my fault. There's an old saying about the odor of opinions; mine included.

[scottchurch]

an image remains art when it is open to be discussed, it becomes porn when it is censored.

as long as one persons opinion superceeds the community standard, you will never be able to decide for yourself. when something is taken from view and pronounced "bad" you have no option but to imagine the worst and it becomes "bad".

if that is the rule then so be it, it's not my place to say one way or another. one persons art is another's porn, the line is only crossed in the individuals mind. i know, for my own well being, i would rather decide for myself, but then who the heck am i?

i have never and will never claim to be an artist, or a pornographer.




i know that this comment will most likely be deleted. but i would like to thank everyone for all of the wonderful private messages i have received this morning.

[rkayw]

unfocused drama...

[SCone]

This is the ORIGINAL POST that started this whole discussion....
--------------------------------------------
another one from today, this one didn't end up on the webcam.

funny thing about shooting stuff like this. i get asked to do this sort of thing quite often and everytime we get down to the actual shooting part nobody really knows what to do. people come in with all sorts of thoughts, but they never seem to actually know what "sex" is supposed to look like in pictures. it's kinda funny, actually.

it's tough for me because i don't want to talk someone into doing something they don't want to do, even when they tell me they're ok with anything, (and it's their idea in the first place), but when i tell them to show me what they're thinking, they have no idea what to do, it's like all of our brains just shut off.

i know what's supposed to look hot, but explaining it without seeming creepy, or being actually creepy for that matter, is really not where i want things to go either.

is any of this making sense or should i just go to bed? **** it, i like the shot, i think it's riding right on that line and that's just what they wanted, i guess.
------------------------------------------

Now I ask, what am I supposed to think? The OP questions the risque nature of the photo, talks about photographing 'sex", the creepiness of shooting this type of shot, and even states, "..is really not where I want things to go either".

Now, somehow the removal of the image becomes a censorship and free speech issue. But I must point back to the ORIGINAL POST, it begs for validation of the subject matter.

I for one, called it what I saw it to be, porn, plain and simple. Even went so far to state that I had no issues with porn, nudity or such. I liked the shot, I was in no way offended by the photo, but it still crossed the line from being an artistic nude into the realm of porn.

As I said before, you have a amazing eye for nudes Scott.

[Abel]

In regards to that thread Stephen... I was sent a PM on that topic by another member that viewed that thread.

If you would please explain what you considered pornographic about the removed photo I would feel much better about its removal.

My Response:
hard to say... theres no clear cut way to explain it. it really depends on each photo individually

pretty much we'll know it when we see it... i know that sounds cheesy but its the only fair way it can be done. two other mods were in agreement on its removal so it was removed. we have a 3 mod rule in regards to posts such as this. it take 3 mods to agree that it needs to be removed in order for it to be removed.

one mod's level of tolerance may differ from others so we use this method as a checks and balances system to make sure we call it as fair as we can.

The one woman's hand provocatively place on the other woman's genitalia was the breaking point in this image.

Thanks
Abel.

[rkayw]

and... a administrative locked post becomes open with copy & paste. total disrespect for Abels decission & position to keep this large board cival & respectable.

grow up people....

Abel, can we stop this now.

[Coelus]

Your forum, your rules. It's up to the rest of us to follow them.
I think the discussion of the disposition of that particular photo is between Scott and Abel. The general topic was brought up here for the rest of us to pummel deceased equine.