Pixtus - Photography Forum, Photographers, Photo Tips

resehop · **Great debate -** 06-12-2008, 05:42 PM

I just can't stand it anymore...so here it goes

:

I don't understand the people on here. So many times I read about the great debate about digital vs film and what truly makes a person a professional vs amateur and so on. Photographers complain about the new digital revolution of people picking up the camera and now they think they are a photographer. How people charging lower prices are taking food off other people's table. Come on folks, let’s get with the program. It is called SUPPLY and DEMAND!

When you go out to eat, do you always go to a place that charges $50 per meal? Some people just cannot afford that and therefore go to a place that maybe charges $20 per meal (or so on).

I am one of those that stepped into the photography world when it was finally affordable for me to afford the SLR. Don't we all have to start somewhere? Ohh and guess what? I used a Canon xTI at weddings for some time. I was by no means charging up to what the industry standards seem to be and I gave a CD with the images on it. I had clients. People who were so thankful that they found me because they couldn't afford other photographers that they had found.

For those of you who criticize people like me, doesn't everyone deserve to have their wedding captured? Isn't it better to have someone rather than no one?

I have said this to a member before, and I will continue to say it. "Just like there is a place in the market for studios like wal-mart, there is a place for both you and I, so please do not judge me"

Jeff_Green · 06-12-2008, 06:12 PM

I am definately not one of those who is charging industry standard but I will respond.

You said

Quote:

I am one of those that stepped into the photography world when it was finally affordable for me to afford the SLR.

You mean to tell me that the old SLR's were more expensive than todays DSLR's? I shot my first wedding with a Canon Rebel SLR and I can promise you it is about 1/5th the price of my Nikon D70. Being a professional photographer is, actually, an affordable thing to do, if you use your money right.

We all do have to start somewhere, as Don Barnes said in another thread, that it is usually by practicing until you are good enough.

Another point that has been made often is that people can't afford photographers because they don't want to. What do they pay for the other parts of the wedding that only last a few hours? They are far more willing to pay for food, flowers, decorations, etc that won't be looked at after the day than they are for a photographer who captures their priceless images. No, they can afford it, but why should they if people will give them what they want for really cheap and now they don't have to spend any more money to get more images... just take it to CVS.

Jeff

CaptainTom · 06-12-2008, 06:23 PM

If I were a professional computer programmer, and there were a zillion amateur computer programmers out there doing it for free, I'd be out of business in a heartbeat. I certainly wouldn't be throwing a party for these people and I doubt I'd be giving them my professional advice as to what code to use and how to get the job done more quickly.

But, people come on this forum continually asking "what lens should I use, and how does this thing work?" and we give them advice and the next thing they are in business for themselves, producing crap, and giving the rest of us a black eye and a bad reputation.

No soup for you !!!

M12576 · 06-12-2008, 06:24 PM

rhop- Did you get into photography specifically to do weddings? Or did you get into photography because you like it/love it?

When planning a wedding you definitely go the cheaper route, without sacrificing the quality. To a bride that knows nothing about photography my pictures might be just as fantastic as the "pro" photog that is going to charge her 3 times as much. If she's happy with my photos and my price then I say so be it.

jeff - I definitely see your point too. After doing a few gigs as the wedding photog and all the hard work, brides will push and push for more. "I only get 120 photos??? But you were there for 3 hours!" Or something like that. They just don't get what goes into the whole shooting the wedding thing is.

I did a wedding 3 weeks ago (my first) for free as a favor for a friend. I was there 7 hours and gave her TONS of pics. I never got a thank you. I got "Your pics were great" but not a thank you. (I can't remember the point I was making....

so I think I'll end here.)

M12576 · 06-12-2008, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainTom

If I were a professional computer programmer, and there were a zillion amateur computer programmers out there doing it for free, I'd be out of business in a heartbeat. I certainly wouldn't be throwing a party for these people and I doubt I'd be giving them my professional advice as to what code to use and how to get the job done more quickly.

But, people come on this forum continually asking "what lens should I use, and how does this thing work?" and we give them advice and the next thing they are in business for themselves, producing crap, and giving the rest of us a black eye and a bad reputation.

No soup for you !!!

Ooo!! Ahhh!! Is that really what happens?? Then those people are totally missing the point of THE HOBBY!! It's a HOBBY!!! When did it become a quick money making thing?

Jeff_Green · 06-12-2008, 06:29 PM

Your point was made by you in the 3rd paragraph. The bride wants as much as she can get for as cheap as she can get it. When it comes to photographs, she will pay someone to give her a CD if they do it for cheap. That way not only does she get her wedding shot really cheaply, she doesn't have to pay to order images.

What will that bride do when talking to someone about to get married? "They are asking HOW MUCH to shoot your wedding???!! I had someone shoot mine for $XXX and they gave me a CD!" So now those who make their living as wedding photographers are now looking like ripoff artists.

resehop · 06-12-2008, 08:12 PM

Jeff-I said that I came into photography in the digital phase, when I was able to afford the SLR (that would be the digital version). I grew up in the computer world and digital age and I didn't have the appreciation of film photography but LOVED digital photography. So I had to wait till I was able to afford it. Just like some people really can’t afford to pay much for photography on their wedding day. I think that if you came to the weddings I shoot you would clearly see this. One bride had fried chicken brought in from a fast food place. Why don’t all photographers shoot with the best camera out there and the best lens? They do a cost analysis, they figure out what is the best bang for their buck that gets the job done. Otherwise wouldn’t we all be shooting with Canon 1Ds Mark III rather than the 5D?

Tom- I do not know if you have noticed, there are photographers on here wanting other photographers to come to their shoot and work for free. Isn’t that a bit hypocritical? Here photographers are saying, value our work, and don’t work for clients for free, but by all means come work for us for free why we make hundreds of dollars in profit. Those that come on here asking what lens to use etc…should mean something. They value your opinion, they want to learn to better themselves and their skill set/knowledge. You are not required to share that with them, they aren’t forcing you to. If there are people out there willing to share that information, are the selling out other photographers and letting newbie’s in on all the secrets.

M12576- I got into it because I love it. I can’t afford the lenses and cameras that I like without doing something to make money. I don’t see that any different then someone who loves gymnastics, for example, tutors others to make money, so that they can afford to go to competitions. Isn’t it funny how all the time photographers’ comment about how their clients don’t pick the same image as they do or sometimes even the worse one? As photographers are looking at the technical aspect and clients are looking at the subject (which is them). I have similar experience such as yours when helping out other photographers for free. Almost like the they forgot what it was like to walk in your shoes, as we all have been there at some point.

Jeff_Green · 06-12-2008, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by resehop

I do not know if you have noticed, there are photographers on here wanting other photographers to come to their shoot and work for free. Isn’t that a bit hypocritical? Here photographers are saying, value our work, and don’t work for clients for free, but by all means come work for us for free why we make hundreds of dollars in profit.

I will be the first to admit that I don't follow every thread on here and catch everything, but from what I have seen, the only "work for free" posts are the tag-a-longs. Sure, you are helping them out, but it is absolutely nothing that they can't handle on their own. Most of the time, the reason they do it is to help others gain experience in weddings which brings us back to the original issue of learning your craft before you charge people for it. You may pay $100-500 for a workshop on shooting weddings or you could tag-a-long to a few weddings and learn for free! Or you could have someone wear a wedding dress, stand in your garage and teach yourself. Tag-a-longs just seem logical to those wanting to learn.

epoh · 06-12-2008, 10:43 PM

The problem isn't really ppl low on talent getting paid for their hobby, IMO. The real problem is those who are actually decent photographers undervaluing themselves. When you devalue a service, you don't just short-change yourself, you short-change EVERYONE in that business. And the pretty-decent hobbiest who is under-charging is really hurting themselves by not properly valuing their own time, resources and talent. And that rolls over to the folks trying to actually make a proper living off photography. These people actually do understand the costs involved, and would like to be able to cover those costs.

epoh · 06-12-2008, 10:47 PM

The best thing I can compare this argument to:

Walmart. Walmart can come into a town and open a store or two (or 10) and run them at a loss for several years, because they are making plenty of money from their other locations. By being able to run at a loss, they can under-cut all the local shops. As a result many of the local shops go out of business, because they CAN'T afford to run at a loss.

This is basically what is happening. Nothing 'bad' or 'wrong' is necessarily happening, in a free-market sense. But you cannot possibly expect the people you are running out of business to be happy for you, or even be nice to you. And you certainly shouldn't expect them to HELP you.

11:11 PM

Most photographers welcome new people into the business as long as they newbie is coming into the industry legally. Everyone comes into this business at different levels of experience, etc but business is business. Many of the photographer's charging ridiculously low rates can do so because they just are not paying the taxes, etc that are required. A pro's rates reflect not only talent but fees based on business calculations.

You have to have a sales tax permit before you EVER accept money. And you are required to pay property taxes for business property. Other requirements include Occupancy Permits, etc. Living in a Deed Restricted area, then you are probably in violation having a business in your home. Do you have insurance on your equipment? Do you have insurance in case a client hurts themselves while at your studio? All costs associated with the business.

If a newbie is paying all the required taxes and fees and can still charge $500 and make a profit . . . Kudos to them. But we will see if they are still in business five years from now.

resehop · 06-13-2008, 12:16 AM

Jeff-I agree that the tag along opportunities can be of value. At the same time, I have seen photographers asking for someone to come carry around lights and watch equipment, for free. I have been on tag along opportunities, handed my images over, asked photographers if I can see what images they got, or other small favors of the sort to better myself (which is why I took it in the first place) and never heard from them again.

epoh- Value their work on whose standards? I don’t think that is a value argument for that fact that everyone values things differently. I value helping brides that can’t afford photographers otherwise, yet without operating at a loss as stated in your Wal-Mart example. I also value helping charities that relate to photography. I still have yet to understand how people don’t understand that it is supply and demand. Every photographer brings something different to the table. What I offer is not what anyone else offers, I can guarantee you that.

TLooney- One thing I suggest, don’t judge based on what you don’t know. I do have sales tax ID and I pay it. Sales tax is added onto packages, money isn’t coming out of my pocket. I do carry insurance as well (I couldn’t afford not to in this sue happy society). I have done my research to maintain a legal “business”. So if these are your requirements for photographers “welcoming” a newbie into the industry then why isn’t the research done before assuming? I get PMs on here from people I have never spoke to in my life about how to run my business, what I should be charging, and so on. How is this professional and wouldn’t you think they would have better ways to manage their time then to tell me how I should run things?