The Photographers Rights...

[johnastovall]

Originally Posted by kenw

Thoughts that the Photographer's Rights sheet of paper will act as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card are sorely misplaced. The cop on the street doesn't know that this piece of paper wasn't something you cobbled up on the home CPU yesterday. He doesn't know Mr Kragen from Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

In fact, he's very likely (and has on at least on documented case I've heard of) to haul you off anyway, and is perfectly within his authority to do so until he figures out what is real. His definition of "acting suspicious" is all he needs.

My personal experience has been that smart cops know the law, and the few idiots (who aren't usually cops) aren't going to be swayed by some piece of paper you wave in their face. Try taking pics of trains in and around Houston immediately after 9-11. You'll meet lots of cops, curious RR workers and just plain nosey and obnoxious idiots (who are neither RR workers or cops).

Bottomline: You attitude is paramount. Know your rights, and for that Mr Kragen's site has value. But as far as printing the "Bill of Rights" to pass out to those you think need some educating, don't bother.

True you may not beat the ride but it's good for handing to officious civilians.

[David_Janaskie]

Hmmm...if an officer takes me in because of 'acting suspicious' , can I take pictures of the process? (May be kind of difficult with handcuffs, I guess).

Davej.

[Michelle Allmon]

I have Krages book, "Legal Handbook for Photographers, The Rights and Liabilities of Making Images." On page 80 under the Permissible Subjects section, Krages says, "Except for certain defense and nuclear facilities, it is legal to photograph the exteriors of government office buildings and post offices."

I haven't read the whole book yet, but the only thing I've seen that might apply here is that some cities requre permits if you are setting up an extensive set of equipment (strobes, props, reflectors, etc) that might obstruct vehicle or pedestrian traffic or in some way would be " obstructing free passage and access to properties adjoining..."

The book is pretty good for only $20 retail. I've gleaned a lot out of it.

Patti

I got mine on half.com or something for $3 INCLUDING SHIPPING! (the book was 1cent plus shipping).

Doe's anyone remember the dude in north Dallas somewhere (one of the small towns) that was arrested at a festival for alledgedly shooting kids? I read this in the morning news a while back. Seems the officer was hell bent on making the arrest because even though the the pictures were not obscene the officer alledged that they could be used to avertise porn sites. The police chose not to review the pictures in the camera and simply charge the guy. I think the d.a. finally let him go.

It's not *illegal* to take pictures of kids out in the open. People don't like it, but it's not illegal, thank goodness. I was with my kid at a water park on Saturday, can you imagine? I wouldn't have been able to get ANY pics of my kids, there were kids everywhere! Sheesh. I hate when the cops don't even know the law.

[eyesea]

Not to knock police officers, but the sad truth is, they are trained in procedure not the law - that is for the courts and lawyers.

[Michelle Allmon]

true dat. otherwise, they'd be lawyers, too, and hopefully get paid better. :)

[Mark McCall]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I'd like to comment on Erin's question.

I've been photographing the "Courthouses of Texas" for a book I've been writing for about 2 years. To date, I've photographed about 1/2 of Texas' 254 or so courthouses.

No, it is not illegal to photograph a county or federal courthouse. But, I'd have some type of documentation with you in case your asked about what your doing.

I have been stopped a couple of times by the authorities, and once by an attorney leaving a courthouse I was shooting. Since 9/11 and the Murrah Building bombing, people are more sensitive to cameras around courthouses.

I've found that shooting on the weekend dramatically reduces the chances of someone approaching you. Hope that helps.

[Hanky]

once a costable made my x turn off her cell phone while he wrote her a speeding ticket.
i suggest cooperation because they (cops) can do whatever they want, might not get away with it but they have the upper hand. it is all in how the situation is interpreted and what police action deemed necessary. my philosaphy is that i am swimming with sharks and i try not to catch their attention.

[LadyShutterBug]

FYI... you can't take pictures of people on the Metro Rail platforms either, evidently. I was approached, at night, by two metro police cars with their lights on and all when taking pics of a bride nd groom--in full ball gown and tux-- on the rail platform at Main Street by the Rice Lofts.

[Steelsun]

Originally Posted by LadyShutterBug

FYI... you can't take pictures of people on the Metro Rail platforms either, evidently. I was approached, at night, by two metro police cars with their lights on and all when taking pics of a bride nd groom--in full ball gown and tux-- on the rail platform at Main Street by the Rice Lofts.

Actually Metro passed a rule that you can't be on a platform without a ticket. Maybe that's why.
Metro cops are notorious for abuse of power. They are cops that could not make it into HPD or the like so had to take the glorified security gig. Yet they will give Jay Walking tickets, pull over speeders, etc.
A farce of a force.

[kenw]

simply put, being on a Metro platform without a ticket constitutes trespassing, therefore the ticketable offense. It is private property, like any other private property, and being on private property without permission is trespassing.

Was out taking train pics one day at lunch, a Metro officer asked me what I was doing...I said "Taking pictures of trains from public propery, which is perfectly legal to do..."

She responded with a deer-in-the-headlights look and drove off, and almost was hit by the crossing arm as it moved down. She had stopped ON THE TRACKS, in full view of the approaching train (horns, lights, AS WELL AS SOME GUY SAYING HE WAS TAKING PICTURES OF IT...) to ask me the question.......

[Steelsun]

One big problem with the whole Metro need a ticket on the platform thing though: Some of the platforms were put in over/on public sidewalks, and you can't go down the street without walking on the platforms.
Places in point like this is the stops in the Museum District at Binz/Bissonet.

[Timge]

I find the perspectives in this thread somewhat interesting and thought I would contribute my 2 cents. A little about me: I have been a law enforcement officer for 25 years and was a photographer (MOS 84B) in the Army before that.

First let me say that the comment that officers are trained in procedure and not the law could not be further from the truth in my opinion, it is the other way around. Officers are generally more familiar with criminal law than most attorneys will ever be, but that is criminal law only. Officers are trained in general concepts of civil law but that is not their primary function. For purposes of criminal law attorneys are trained in procedure much more than cops are and that is why what they attack in court is the procedure. Seldom are the facts of a crime tried in court. Officers are not specialist but generalist in the application of the law and their training in procedure deals primarily with the circumstances of search, detention or arrest. If you look at legal specialties outside of criminal law, ie; medical malpractice, then attorneys are much more aware of the specifics regarding the aspects of that civil law specialty.

As far as dealing with officers, I must say that the first thing you need to do is make sure you know what you are talking about. For instance, in this thread the Metro rail station came up and apparently someone did not realize that you have to have a ticket to be there or be subject to criminal trespass statutes. In Texas, Criminal Trespass is an arrestable offense subject to jail time, not just ticketable ( although ticketing or a field relase citation may be that agencies policy rather than immediate arrest).

Realize that there are federal and state statutes as well as local ordinances which are very different in application. County governments in Texas have very limited ordinance making authority, whereas cities have complete ordinance making authority so long as it is not less restrictive than state or federal law or a violation of civil liberties. When dealing with city officers or some specialty department like a transportation police agency or school police agency ensure you know their specific ordinances because these can get quite nitpicky.

When confronted by an officer, do not develop an attitude or insult the officer. Nobody likes to be the subject of rude, obnoxious or any other attitudinal behavior. In Texas, it is illegal to resist arrest whether the initial arrest was legal or not, so be aware that even if you are correct initially, you may become guilty of another offense in the process. I think most officers are reasonable and will listen to what you have to say as long as it is presented in a straightforward and non-antagonisitc manner. If it starts to get ugly you just have to determine if it is worth the consequences to stand your ground, especially if photography is not your profession. If you are certain you are right but an officer is not willing to work with you or hear your side and you do not want to become a victim of police abuses, then leave and file a complaint and/or a lawsuit against the officer and the department. If it is a principle that you insist on defending and you are willing to accept the immediate consequences to obtain long term change then I commend you and congratulate you for standing by those principles. That is why we have a constitution and a bill of rights. Officers cannot do whatever they want although there are some out there that think they can. Also be aware that some jurisdictions interpret things differently and have a much more closed and less scrutinzed judicial system.

I have worked at the federal courthouse in Austin and I can tell you that the absolute rule there is that you can not block the sidewalk or any entrance/egress to the courthouse and you may not be on federal property for your photography, this includes professional news crews unless otherwise authorized by the authorities there. The sidewalk in front of the courthouse has generally been accepted as long as the sidewalk is not blocked. This may have changed recently, but to be sure you can always contact the chief district judge for permission, the marshals and court security officers will be made aware if the judge okays it. As far as being across the street and taking photos I will tell you that the courthouses are heavily monitored by video and you will probably be questioned, but refer to the paragraph above for handling that.

Here is a link toTexas criminal statutes (Penal Code):
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/petoc.html.

Sorry for being so long, I guess I had more than 2 cents worth.

[Steelsun]

Great advice.

[MoserPhotographic]

Originally Posted by kenw

simply put, being on a Metro platform without a ticket constitutes trespassing, therefore the ticketable offense. It is private property, like any other private property, and being on private property without permission is trespassing.

Was out taking train pics one day at lunch, a Metro officer asked me what I was doing...I said "Taking pictures of trains from public propery, which is perfectly legal to do..."

She responded with a deer-in-the-headlights look and drove off, and almost was hit by the crossing arm as it moved down. She had stopped ON THE TRACKS, in full view of the approaching train (horns, lights, AS WELL AS SOME GUY SAYING HE WAS TAKING PICTURES OF IT...) to ask me the question.......

Oh, THAT is just classic......can you imagine what the headline would be like on the 5-o-clock news???
"Metro cop nailed by train as photographer captures action"
Jeez...can you say DOH!!

[mdurisseau]

A lawsuit has been filed by the New York Civil Liberties Union...if this action follows normal form, this is something that all police departments will have to pay attention to...

http://www.nyclu.org/sharma_pr_080706.html