WTF Happened?

[Sonny]

I was helping a friend shoot a cheerleading competition last weekend, and something horrible went wrong. For the life of me I can not figure out why there is SOOOOO much noise in these photos. To view the photos in their original size and see the noise much better click HERE.

I hope somebody can tell me where I went wrong.



Date Taken: 2006-11-11 09:08:05
Date Digitized: 2006-11-11 09:08:05
Date Modified: 2006-11-12 09:35:14
Make: Canon
Model: Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
Size: 2336x3504
Bytes: 13304202
Aperture: f/2.8
ISO: 1600
Focal Length: 175mm (guess: 215mm in 35mm)
Exposure Time: 0.002s (1/500)
Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode
Exposure Program: Manual
Exposure Bias: 0
ExposureMode: 1
White Balance: auto
ColorSpace: sRGB



Date Taken: 2006-11-11 12:43:06
Date Digitized: 2006-11-11 12:43:06
Date Modified: 2006-11-12 09:44:41
Make: Canon
Model: Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
Size: 2336x3504
Bytes: 10739760
Aperture: f/2.8
ISO: 1600
Focal Length: 120mm (guess: 148mm in 35mm)
Exposure Time: 0.002s (1/500)
Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode
Exposure Program: Manual
Exposure Bias: 0
ExposureMode: 1
White Balance: auto
ColorSpace: sRGB



Date Taken: 2006-11-11 13:03:29
Date Digitized: 2006-11-11 13:03:29
Date Modified: 2006-11-12 09:41:44
Make: Canon
Model: Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
Size: 3504x2336
Bytes: 13506775
Aperture: f/2.8
ISO: 1600
Focal Length: 135mm (guess: 113mm in 35mm)
Exposure Time: 0.0025s (1/400)
Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode
Exposure Program: Manual
Exposure Bias: 0
ExposureMode: 1
White Balance: auto
ColorSpace: sRGB

[Daniel Bates]

uh... yikes! My 1D classic looks a lot better than that, and its noise processing is supposed to be less effective.


That doesn't look right for 1600 on a IIN. These are straight out of the camera, right?

[PeteQ]

Did you have to bump up the exposure/levels once you imported the RAW files?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by Daniel Bates

uh... yikes! My 1D classic looks a lot better than that, and its noise processing is supposed to be less effective.


That doesn't look right for 1600 on a IIN. These are straight out of the camera, right?

These are straight outta the camera. There is no way there should be that much noise for a Canon body.

Originally Posted by PeteQ

Did you have to bump up the exposure/levels once you imported the RAW files?

Actually I did not have to adjust the exposure level. I stared out shooting AP. At that time my settings were ISO1600, shutter 1/160 - 1/250, f/2.8, Auto WB, and no flashed fire. So I figured I could switch to manual mode and bump up my shutter speed (to stop the action) while underexposing the shot. Then I would adjust the exposure in ACR.

[David_3]

Originally Posted by PeteQ

Did you have to bump up the exposure/levels once you imported the RAW files?

That was my first thought too. But I'm not sure it would create that much noise unless you increased the exposure levels (in ACR) by a full stop or more. Strange. Have you tried any test shots since then?

[dlbdata]

My thoughts are with the wide open lens, poor lighting, and the high ISO, noise will be present.

[PeteQ]

The wide open lens shouldn't have anything to do with the noise. His noise levels are far in excess of what one should see at 1600 on the Canon. Heck, it's far in excess of 3200 on a Nikon!

When you use a lower iso and underexpose in an effort to keep the noise down, you actually exacerbate the noise issue when yo later have to adjust the exposure in post. Shooting a correctly exposed image for your given conditions is the best way to control noise.

[PeteQ]

Originally Posted by Sonny

Actually I did not have to adjust the exposure level. I stared out shooting AP. At that time my settings were ISO1600, shutter 1/160 - 1/250, f/2.8, Auto WB, and no flashed fire. So I figured I could switch to manual mode and bump up my shutter speed (to stop the action) while underexposing the shot. Then I would adjust the exposure in ACR.

Yes you did have to adjust the exposure level. See your last line. "Then I would adjust the exposure in ACR"

That's more than likely the "smoking gun" here. You may have underexposed up to 1+ stops without even knowing it. When you brought up the exposre in ACR it really exaggerates the noise that is there. Probably moreso than if you would have shot at iso 3200 to begin with.

This is a good example of how people can fall prey to "I can fix it later if I shoot RAW" in so many circumstances. RAW is not a cure all. Getting things right in the camera is the best approach.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by David_3

That was my first thought too. But I'm not sure it would create that much noise unless you increased the exposure levels (in ACR) by a full stop or more. Strange. Have you tried any test shots since then?

I have not tried any test shots since then...been to disappointed.

Originally Posted by PeteQ

Yes you did have to adjust the exposure level. See your last line. "Then I would adjust the exposure in ACR"

That's more than likely the "smoking gun" here. You may have underexposed up to 1+ stops without even knowing it. When you brought up the exposre in ACR it really exaggerates the noise that is there. Probably moreso than if you would have shot at iso 3200 to begin with.

This is a good example of how people can fall prey to "I can fix it later if I shoot RAW" in so many circumstances. RAW is not a cure all. Getting things right in the camera is the best approach.

I did not change the exposure manually. Would ACR do this automatically? I thought was going to have to adjust the exposure, but I did not need to. I am still very new to RAW.

[David_3]

Originally Posted by Sonny

Would ACR do this automatically?

Why, yes it does. At least it does with my version. I almost always have to change it back to where I like it when I open a raw file in ACR.

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by Sonny

I did not change the exposure manually. Would ACR do this automatically? I thought was going to have to adjust the exposure, but I did not need to. I am still very new to RAW.

ACR auto corrects exposure by default, unless you go in and switch it off.

So if you were deliberately underexposing all of these shots when you captured them, then ACR would have auto corrected and given you the well exposed, noisy shots you show here. It sounds like you were deliberately underexposing by about a stop or more so this seems the likely cause.

You can disable that permanently that in ACR, by switching off the auto exposure correct and saving a new set of defaults.

[PeteQ]

Originally Posted by Sonny

I did not change the exposure manually. Would ACR do this automatically? I thought was going to have to adjust the exposure, but I did not need to. I am still very new to RAW.

Yes, ACR will do it automatically. Reload a RAW image and see what adjustments ACR is making. In the ACR preview window you will have adjustments on the right hand side. They are check marked and have a value under them. When they are check marked they are being applied. Un-check them to to see what the individual adjustment does to your image. To switch between using and disregarding all of ACR's auto adjustments you can use Command-U (on Mac) . This toggles the adjustment all on or all off.

I am betting when you reload one of these images you will see a prety large exposure adjusment. That is your culprit.

Now, repeat after me, RAW is not a fix-all, RAW is not a fix-all......

I'm sorry it happened during a competition that you were helping a freind with. That's a tough time to learn a lesson like this.

[zepp]

Looks like under exposure at time of capture then processing to bring out the shadow detail during post processing introduced noise.

You would be surprised at how little the amount of incorrect underexposure introduces noise when files are tweaked during post.

Shooting at a higher ISO at the proper exposure is cleaner than shooting at a lower ISO and underexposing the shot then trying to bring it out in post.

Best.....

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by Gordon

ACR auto corrects exposure by default, unless you go in and switch it off.

So if you were deliberately underexposing all of these shots when you captured them, then ACR would have auto corrected and given you the well exposed, noisy shots you show here. It sounds like you were deliberately underexposing by about a stop or more so this seems the likely cause.

You can disable that permanently that in ACR, by switching off the auto exposure correct and saving a new set of defaults.

My original intention was to bump up the shutter speed to 1/500 allowing me to stop the action, but at the same time I knew the shots would be underexposed. Then use ACR to fixed the underexposured photos. I will change the setting in ACR stop the auto correction. Thanks!

Originally Posted by PeteQ

Yes, ACR will do it automatically. Reload a RAW image and see what adjustments ACR is making. In the ACR preview window you will have adjustments on the right hand side. They are check marked and have a value under them. When they are check marked they are being applied. Un-check them to to see what the individual adjustment does to your image. To switch between using and disregarding all of ACR's auto adjustments you can use Command-U (on Mac) . This toggles the adjustment all on or all off.

I am betting when you reload one of these images you will see a prety large exposure adjusment. That is your culprit.

Now, repeat after me, RAW is not a fix-all, RAW is not a fix-all......

I'm sorry it happened during a competition that you were helping a freind with. That's a tough time to learn a lesson like this.

Thanks Pete for the advice. As I am very new to the world of RAW and ACR I shall not abuse it again. Sonny say..."RAW is not a fix-all, RAW is not a fix-allRAW is not a fix-all, RAW is not a fix-all!"

Originally Posted by zepp

Looks like under exposure at time of capture then processing to bring out the shadow detail during post processing introduced noise.

You would be surprised at how little the amount of incorrect underexposure introduces noise when files are tweaked during post.

Shooting at a higher ISO at the proper exposure is cleaner than shooting at a lower ISO and underexposing the shot then trying to bring it out in post.

Best.....

I hope to nail down this RAW & ACR learning curve. Next time I will remember proper exposure & high ISO is the only way to go!





Thank you guys for taking the time to help me out and explain what I did wrong. I really appreciate it.

[AndrewCCM]

Try NoiseNinja or NeatImage and see if that helps a bit too. This is by no means a cure all for underexposing, but can help after the fact. As mentioned above, shooting at proper exposure even with higher ISO, will ultimately be cleaner in most cases vs. bumping exposure significantly after the fact.