I *REALLY* need help with my indoor settings!!

[jburly]

I need some big time help with figuring out why my pictures are so soft!! In the right conditions, the pictures are as sharp as can be, so I know it isn't the lens/camera. It is definitely the photographer... :oops:

Here's the conditions & what I've got to work with: I was taking some pictures of my daughter's last gymnastics class. The class was in a gym & there was some outdoor light pouring in through a glass door, but that was way off to the side. I did not want to use any flash & I only have the kit & the EF 50mm f/1.8 II lens. I used the 50mm for the entire time.

I took around 85 pictures & they were all soft. Some better than others, but none were really sharp. For the most part, there wasn't a lot of quick movement (she's only 4 ).

I started out with "P" mode & ISO 400. Then switched to "Action" mode.
Last, I tried "Tv" mode with shutter speed of 1/500 or 1/320 with ISO 1600.

I tried to adjust some of my settings for her last ballet class which was last night. I got much better pictures, but still some of them are soft. Again, indoors with the 50mm lens.

I shot most of the pictures in "Av" mode, f/1.8, with ISO 400. I was afraid to use ISO 800 or ISO 1600 because I thought the noise was causing the softness in the gymnastics pictures. Should I have bumped up the ISO?

Now that you've read all of this, I bet you'd like to see what I'm talking about. Here's a link to just a couple sample pictures.

http://www.theburlygroup.com/20D/temp/

If you would like to see all the gymnastics pictures, go here:

http://www.theburlygroup.com/20D/Eve...ics/index.html

Here's the ballet pictures:

http://www.theburlygroup.com/20D/Eve...let/index.html

The photo galleries don't contain the EXIF info, but it is on the "sample" page.

I would really appreciate any help/tips you guys could give me. I want to do better next time!!

[OversighT]

Jeannie--
I have the 50mm 1.8 as well and have found that wide open it's not very sharp. I've heard others say the same thing, but I can't seem to find the post(s). There is a sweet spot between f/3.2 and f/8 where the lens is really sharp. You could have bumped up the ISO to 800 and stopped down the aperture to get more sharpness without sacrificing much in the way of noise (the 20D does really well with keeping noise out of high ISO shots).


T.

[srwatters]

My first suggestion is to forget the 'program' modes and shoot either A, S, or M. Except for studio flash work, I am almost always using A mode. I set the aperture where I want to give me the desired depth of field, then look at the shutter speed the camera chooses. If it isn't fast enough to stop any action or for the focal length of the lens (remember the 1/focal length for hand held shutter speed rule) I start to up the ISO until I get where I need to be. That should help you to get optimum settings for available light hand held photography.

Edit:
After reading your comments, I'm not so sure you understand the relationship between aperture and depth of field. On the ballet picture you say part of the frame is sharp but other parts are not. This was shot at f/1.8 at 50mm. Your depth of field is going to be VERY shallow wide open like that (like 6"). Remember that the smaller the f number the larger that aperture and the shallower the depth of field will be. The focal length and the distance to the subject will also play a part in the equation. Look at this web site http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html and fill in the numbers. It will calculate the depth of field for you.

[Bill Huber]

I will have to say I agree with both, OversighT and srwatters, I think they hit it right on the head.

You do need to find the sweet spot of your lens. The sweet spot is somewhere in the center of the F stop range. If you think of a bell-curve that is the way the lens is as to sharpness, The sharpness will not be as good on either end of the range as it is in the center.

Like Scott stated, I shoot in A mode about 90% of the time and watch my shutter speed to keep it up for hand held or action.

[jburly]

I have the 50mm 1.8 as well and have found that wide open it's not very sharp. I've heard others say the same thing, but I can't seem to find the post(s). There is a sweet spot between f/3.2 and f/8 where the lens is really sharp.

Thanks for that info!! I'll try keeping the f-stop within that range & see how the pictures turn out. In the 2 pics from my "samples" page where my kiddos are really sharp, the f-stop is 3.5 & 5.0.

After reading your comments, I'm not so sure you understand the relationship between aperture and depth of field

I wasn't talking about DOF in my comment. I was talking about some pictures were sharper than other pictures. Not individuals in the picture were sharper than others. I do understand DOF. I reallly wasn't concerned about the other girls in the class, just my baby... :lol:

[jburly]

Thanks Bill. You were posting while I was typing. I will definitely have to experiment with my lens to find out where it is sharpest.

Now, when you guys say that you shoot most of your pictures in A mode are you talking about "auto" mode? Or Av mode? I am assuming you guys are talking about Av mode since it sounds like you are setting your aperature & watching your shutter. Right? In auto mode, my camera would have popped up the flash every time, wouldn't let the ISO be higher than 400, & I couldn't have modified many of the settings.

Just want to be sure I'm understanding properly. I guess I was getting closer with the ballet pictures, but I definitely will have to stop down the aperature to get better sharpness.

Thank you SOOO much for your help (& not laughing at my question)!!! In a couple weeks, I'll be taking some pictures of my gal up on stage during a dress rehearsal for their ballet performance. Any suggestions? Since it is a practice, I'll be able to be standing down front, but it will be full stage lights, etc.

THANKS AGAIN!!!

[srwatters]

Originally Posted by jburly

I wasn't talking about DOF in my comment. I was talking about some pictures were sharper than other pictures. Not individuals in the picture were sharper than others. I do understand DOF. I reallly wasn't concerned about the other girls in the class, just my baby... :lol:

I still think you are confusing sharpness with focus accuracy. I assume you're using auto focus. Correct me if I'm wrong. Are you focus locking on your daughters face, then re-composing and then taking the shot? What AF mode are you using? Which focusing area are you using?

What I'm getting at is at 10' from the subject 50mm focal length and f/1.8 your depth of field is going to be less than 10". Divide that by two and you get 5 inches margin of error. If you miss by just at little, the image is OOF. Do some tests on a tripod and move a still object using manual focus and you'll really see the practical application of what I'm talking about.

[jburly]

Yes, Scott, you are probably right that I haven't used the terms focus & sharp in the correct way.

I am using AF. For the ballet pictures, I mostly used AI Servo. I do have some wonderful pictures with the back wall in focus because the dancer moved out of the way right at the last second. :roll: :lol: I also used one shot mode & recomposed the shot. I have the center point selected for focusing. Now that is how I usually focus (one shot using center point), but since the gymnastic pictures were less than stellar, I thought I would try AI Servo.

Here's an example of what I am talking about. This full scale picture is just cropped from the original (nothing else done to it):



It is focused on her hair and while I understand that because of the DOF perhaps the nose area or ponytail area will be OOF, I am concerned why her hair isn't sharp. Nothing in the picture is sharp. OK, so maybe I moved or something, but I have several pictures that are like this. FYI -- 1/250s, f1.8, 400ISO.

That's my initial reason for the post. What am I doing wrong? Well, I believe that T. & Bill gave me the answer. The lens won't be as sharp wide open. I'm still really in the learning phase & I'm glad you guys are patient with me & willing to help me out!!

[Bill Huber]

Here is what you may want to try for really checking the lens.

Tape a newspaper to a wall about 30 feet away, do this in and area where you can get a f 1.8 at an ISO setting of 200. Put the camera on a tripod and shot say 2 or 3 shots at that setting. Then start closing the lens down and adjusting shutter speed until you get to your highest F stop. Take 2 or 3 shots at each stop you stop at, 1.8, 3.5, 5.6, 8, 16. Then look at these pictures and see what you come up with as a sweet spot.

[brad]

It looks like there might be a strand or two of hair that is sharp.. but at f/1.8, you aren't going to get a DOF of more than an inch unless you are 5 feet or more away... add to that the idea that this lens isn't naturally sharp when its wide open and you get shots that look like this.

I try to keep that lens around f/4.0 .. seems to be great for portraits.

[srwatters]

Wow that is a really soft (not sharp) image. Even wide open I would expect it to be quite a bit sharper than that. Have you done a focus test on the lens? Give this a try: http://md.co.za/d70/chart.html#ActualChart. Follow the instructions and take some shots to test the AF accuracy of your camera/lens combo. It's original purpose was for the Nikon D70, but it will work for any camera.

[jburly]

I will definitely go through the tests you guys posted!! But I'll have to wait until the kiddos are down for some TV time this afternoon. Everyone's out of school... 8)

Anyhow, I will check out the camera & lens, but I am more inclined to believe that it is a user error!! I have taken excellent pictures with the camera & lens. Of course, they are outside in great lighting conditions. Here's one (unedited) taken just 2 days ago (1/400s, f5.0, ISO 200, scaled to make it reasonable viewing size):



Here's a little bit that isn't scaled, just cropped:



Just so you guys know, I use parameter 2 settings. I always add some sharpening in PS, but if it photo is too soft to begin with.... Well, you know.

Thanks again guys. I'll run some tests later on this afternoon or tonight. Oh wait, tonight is "DATE NIGHT" & Star Wars is on the agenda!! If I can, I'll try the tests out this afternoon; otherwise tomorrow.

[srwatters]

BTW, your daughter is precious. I have one about the same age I think, 3? This was from her dance recital Wednesday evening. I can tell you it was very difficult to get shots of her. No flash was allowed and I was in the third row. I used my 80-200mm f/2.8 wide open at 200mm, 1/400, ISO 1600 to get this:


Be prepared for some tough conditions at your daughters recital. I shot some 100+ images and maybe will get 5-10 keepers. Available low light photography of a moving subject is very difficult.

[jburly]

Scott, your daughter is beautiful! What a wonderful picture of her in the raincoat & umbrella!! Priceless!!

I've got 3 kiddos -- 6, 4, & 1. The gymnist/ballerina is the 4 year old. I'm going to give it my best shot at her rehearsal, but I don't have real high expectations -- since I only have the kit lens & the 50mm. Hopefully, I'll get a couple that won't be too bad. I'm saving up for the 70-200mm f/4L.

I haven't had time to run through the lens tests yet, but I will definitely do them as soon as I can.

Thanks again!!

[Xposure Photo]

Jeannie,

I just saw your post, just scanned thru, so not sure if someone has answered or not, but your problem is lighting, eventhough you can shoot it at 400ISO @ 250 does not mean you will get a sharp image, you have subjuct movement and camera shake, and from the time you focus any movement back or forward of the sumject or you will cause a soft picture shooting wide open, as I can see your image I beliece you did not used flash...outdoor photos have more lighting enough to get a sharper image, if you use flash indoors with ISO 400 and 60 SP you will get a sharper image and able to frezz the image better and still get the background lighted depending on how big is the room, if it is a big room you mey get a yellowish far background.

I hope that helps.